[Ashlar521]

No women are banned from this site .There are a couple who post regularly . Anyone who wants to ask questions on here and participate in posting is free to do so .

[Ashlar521]

Originally Posted by Green-Moo

Thank you cemab4y for all those links. I didn't realise there were so many opportunities for women, though I was aware of some. I think it will be a long time before the groups for woman are perceived to be of equal status though.

Gree-moo , someone else was on here not long ago who made that very same statement that The OES was not our equals . In my lodge we think very highly of our OES sisters and do not look down our noses at them . I do not say this because I'm also in the OES , I say this because they do beautiful ritual work and they know their buisness . When we have public functions we look to them(OES) for help because they make it look easy and things are so much more smoothly . If I were to tell them they are not equal to us would be asking for trouble .

The links cemab4y posted is all well and good , but in my area of Ky. they are useless . There are only 3 bodies of The Order of The White Shrine of Jerusalem in Ky , and would be a 3 or 4 hour drive to attend a meeting . Same with the Order Of The Amaranth Inc. of Kentucky , they are few and far in between . The Rainbow Girls will not be around much lodger in my neck of the woods either . The last Chapter will be closing their doors soon due to lack of interest from the young girls .

The OES is flourishing though . If you were to attend a Masonic function you would wonder were everyone is at , but go to an OES function and you would find a packed house . Like I stated above , those ladies know how to put on a show . The Sisters in their dresses and the Brothers in our tuxes(because the ladies told us to wear them) . Don't think because The OES is an appendant body of the Blue Lodge that they are not equal to us .

[antoninus9]

I just put up a web site for the discussion of these issues hoping to build a bridge of understanding. If anyone has any comments please email me.

TracingBoard.com

[Green-Moo]

Originally Posted by Ashlar521

Gree-moo , someone else was on here not long ago who made that very same statement that The OES was not our equals . In my lodge we think very highly of our OES sisters and do not look down our noses at them .

I said that I didn't think women were percieved to be equal, not that they weren't. Neither did I suggest who I thought was doing the percieving!

In actual fact I think it is the general public who believe that the women's orders do not have the same status.

[Ashlar521]

Originally Posted by Green-Moo

I said that I didn't think women were percieved to be equal, not that they weren't. Neither did I suggest who I thought was doing the percieving!

In actual fact I think it is the general public who believe that the women's orders do not have the same status.

I see by the use of the explanation points that I must have angered you . You stated " I think it will be a long time before the groups for woman are perceived to be of equal status though ." So no you didn't suggest by who , but it was left to an open interpretation and since this thread is about women and Freemasonry I took it that you were refering to Masons , so I apologize for taking it wrong . But comparing Freemasonry to the womens groups is like comparing apples to oranges . Other than having to be related to a Mason to be in the groups the similarities and status ends there .

Again I apologize for taking your post wrong . But I have heard from many different people say to many times that we , as Masons , think that the OES and other ladies groups are beneath us , when that is far from the truth . And I will take up for our ladies in the OES everytime .

[BG_TRBL]

Originally Posted by antoninus9

Women can indeed become Free-Masons and have been for many years.

I hasten to disagree with your perception of membership. As I have reviewed the information you have presented. I must make note that none of the organizations you have supplied are sanctioned, nor are they recognized by the Grand Lodges of freemasonry.
I can only assume with masonic affiliation they are clandestine lodges which any freemason who adheres to the principles and degrees of the fraternity are not affiliated with. I can only assume that the principles of these lodges are closely refined to simulate the masonic principles therefore giving them a familiar look. I urge anyone interested in these pursuits to gain all knowledge before making a decision. Trace it through history and tradition and you will find that as stated above would be in contridiction to the fraternity.
This is not an attack on you, this is just information which I am passing on. I hope that you can understand, If you are a practicing free-mason, then you know this to be true.

[antoninus9]

Hi BG_TRBL,

I was a mainstream Mason for 20 years and now belong to the Grand Orient. I'm saying this so that you will understand my ideas more clearly.

No, I don't perceive it as an attack at all. What you said, however, requires even further clarification.

From the American and English Grand Lodge perspective what you have said is true, but from a more global perspective it's not as true as you may believe.

I would like to add the following links to those previously posted.

Womens Order of Freemasonry

Home Page

In England many Masons wives belong to the all Female counterpart to the UGLE. This is especially true for the Grand Lodge officer's wives.

At the present time the wife of the Grand Master of Washington DC belongs to a lodge in DC under the jurisdiction of the Feminine Grand Lodge of Belgium.

While these groups are not technically recognized they do have open communication with the state Grand Lodges. They are not unknown or even disliked.

On the continent in Europe these organizations openly work together (male, female and mixed). They maintain many of the Rites and other orders that have died off in the USA.

American Masonry is a hundred years behind the times in many respects and the impact it is having on the fraternity in terms of decline is quite apparent.

For instance the Grand Orient of France has been steadily growing in membership by 5%-8% annually. The feminine GL's are growing at 10%+.

Before you say that the GOdF is clandestine there are several things you should consider:

1. It was started by the Grand Lodge of England (est. 1717) in 1728.
2. It is one of the few remaining Grand Lodges in the world that still utilizes Anderson's Constitutions of 1723.
3. It is the oldest continually operating Grand Lodge in the world. (The UGLE wasn't formed until 1813)

Please also see http://www.tracingboard.com/PDF/Alai...%20Address.pdf

My point is that there is a much bigger Masonic world than that which most American Masons perceive. What's considered "mainstream" Freemasonry in the USA represents only a small percentage of Masons in France, Austria, Belgium, etc. The Grand Orient of France is the largest Masonic body on the continent, and their rituals (believe it or not) are used in more lodges around the globe than any other.

I'm not trying to argue but provide more Light in hopes of promoting a greater understanding of the Craft.

[mollyL]

Please forgive me; I am not any kind of Masonic member, but being a woman I feel I should say this. Your reasoning reminds me of the late 60s and early 70s when women were looking for equality and things were changing. There was the big buzz about "well, what do we call them? Chair persons, Mrs Speaker, CongressWoman? Take stewardesses out of miniskirts and call them something different?" Well, that doesn't sound as weird at it did then, because we use these titles and words all the time. It seems to me that people worry and gripe about change, but then they eventually accept it, and it didn't turn into the disaster people feared.

[BG_TRBL]

Hello antoninus9,
I applaud you for your information and fortitude concerning the membership of women into our laudible fraternity. I read with interest your proposed paper from "www.tracingboard.com/PDF/Alai...%20Address.pdf" I will here remark however that as you read the information provided you will find that on the second page, fourth paragraph, it contradicts your claim of female freemasons. Within the website for the Womens Order of Freemasonry it states under the "History" section in the last paragraph that They are not recognized by United Grand Lodge of England. They acknowledge that they exist, however they are not recognized as a masonic body.
Within the website as well, I found it very interesting that since its' inception, the ?maternity? has since abolished the initiation and membership of male members into its ranks.

Please understand that I am not against change, however, when posed with the situation of (what I felt was) inaccurate information, I proposed only the information which I have accrued. Freemasonry is embodied by individuals everywhere in the world, Male, Female, Elders, Youth, regardless of race, religion, social status, economic or political status. Freemasonry is an idea, or a philosophy by which we live. The outward appearance which can be seen is the physical lodges, and the membership of men only into the fraternity. This is a recognized and established premise/landmark of the "Fraternity".

The establishment of "Masonic bodies" which admit females, or female established masonic bodies are not recognized by the "Fraternity" as true "Masonic Bodies". I am not saying that the future is doomed, merely that current standards/landmarks of the fraternity are/were established centuries ago and have held steadfast since.

If I may add one more of my personal views, this is as I interpret it. Anyone can call themselves a Mason, including those who have no knowledge of the fraternity. Those who have been and are members of the fraternity know that they are Free Masons, they know the initiation and membership is based upon certain requirements. It reminds me of the "Holiday Inn Express" commercials if you are familiar with them.... "Are you a doctor?... No but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night."

Please understand that I again am not attacking you, I truly enjoy discussions such as this, which can provide more enlightenment to everyone who reads it.

[antoninus9]

BG_TRBL,

I think you may have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that they were recognized by the UGLE, but that they were well known and had open communications with them.

"Maternity" lol That's the first time I've heard that one, but it does ask a realistic question: what do we call it? A sorority?

What is Freemasonry (Free-Masonry)? Is it a fraternity (by definition a fraternity is a male-only club)? Is it a confraternity (a society or organization, esp. of men, united for some purpose or in some profession)? Or, is it a system of philosophy and ethics/morality? Or something entirely different? What is your opinion?

I don't believe that there is an absolute answer to the question above. The answers could vary greatly depending the unique perspective of the individual. For instance a die hard Shriner may say "It's obviously a fraternity" while a more spiritual brother/sister may claim its a confraternity or mystical order.

What do you think it is?