Still hitting that brick wall !

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
I am still at a stand still with the Worthy Patron's Initiatory work . I can read it as smooth as silk , but can not get it to stick in my brain . This has to the most frustrated I have ever been concerning memory work in any body , I have even forgotten some of what I already had put to memory . And tonight we have a mock Initiation , so it looks like I am reading it !

This is getting embarrassing .
 

BG_TRBL

Watcher of the posts
I have a feeling that you'll pull through, I found that when I start to get frustrated, I cannot retain anything. I had to take a lot of breaks, get my mind off of it. I've never done anything with OES, I am just referring to the degrees in Blue Lodge that I have learned. As dedicated as you are, I'm sure it will all just come together for you, even if you need a prompt or two.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
I am still at a stand still with the Worthy Patron's Initiatory work . I can read it as smooth as silk , but can not get it to stick in my brain . This has to the most frustrated I have ever been concerning memory work in any body , I have even forgotten some of what I already had put to memory . And tonight we have a mock Initiation , so it looks like I am reading it !

This is getting embarrassing .
I read it into my PC and upload my GPS or an MP3 player, so I can talk to myself wherever I go... If caught by the profane, I promise to eat the GPS or MP3 player....
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
I have a feeling that you'll pull through, I found that when I start to get frustrated, I cannot retain anything. I had to take a lot of breaks, get my mind off of it. I've never done anything with OES, I am just referring to the degrees in Blue Lodge that I have learned. As dedicated as you are, I'm sure it will all just come together for you, even if you need a prompt or two.
It will click into place eventually . Everything else , be it Blue Lodge and the York Rite rituals came so easily or fairly easily that I have it in my head that this should be easy . I think the biggest problem is that so many of the ladies are expecting too much out of me .
 
G

Gary

Guest
I read it into my PC and upload my GPS or an MP3 player, so I can talk to myself wherever I go... If caught by the profane, I promise to eat the GPS or MP3 player....
Doesn't that violate your EA obligation? The part about printing? You are digitally imprinting it on a recordable media... Call me a purist, but Jes' sayin'....
 

Zack

Active Member
Brother Gary,
I remember a number of yrs ago an EA recorded the catechism as he wanted to learn by osmosis. The DDGM got word of this and said it would be forgotton if the tape was given to him. If not charges would be brought for the reason you stated above.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Doesn't that violate your EA obligation? The part about printing? You are digitally imprinting it on a recordable media... Call me a purist, but Jes' sayin'....
Then what do I do with the printout that was handed to me??:confused:

I had that conversation with myself about the printing, I knew that if I was to learn this I would need hours and hours and hours of repetition, so the MP3 was the best option.

Once I passed my EA I erased the files, same will happen shortly with my FC files.
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
Then what do I do with the printout that was handed to me??:confused:

I had that conversation with myself about the printing, I knew that if I was to learn this I would need hours and hours and hours of repetition, so the MP3 was the best option.

Once I passed my EA I erased the files, same will happen shortly with my FC files.
EIEIO. :mad:
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
Brothers: In the State of Wisconsin, proficiency is done a little differently. While still in a catechism format, the vast majority of it is public information. In fact, this particular catechism was written in recent times for the express purpose of giving Masons something they could use to talk to non-Masons about. As long as the parts of it that are in cipher are not written out or recorded, then Russ has broken no obligations. You didn't write out or record the cipher parts, did you, Russ?
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Brothers: In the State of Wisconsin, proficiency is done a little differently. While still in a catechism format, the vast majority of it is public information. In fact, this particular catechism was written in recent times for the express purpose of giving Masons something they could use to talk to non-Masons about. As long as the parts of it that are in cipher are not written out or recorded, then Russ has broken no obligations. You didn't write out or record the cipher parts, did you, Russ?
No Brother Patrick I have not and to clarify, after a Brother is Initiated, Passed, and Raised in Wisconsin, we receive some "Light reading" and an posting key for the profencity of that degree. It contains, in plain english things like the 3 primary religious things taught, the priamry symbols used through Freemasonry, etc. The rest is in cypher and confusing cypher at times.

I have a great set of hand gestures worked out for the EA & FC obligations, as well as the principal symbols of the FC.
 
G

Gary

Guest
Then what do I do with the printout that was handed to me??:confused:

I had that conversation with myself about the printing, I knew that if I was to learn this I would need hours and hours and hours of repetition, so the MP3 was the best option.

Once I passed my EA I erased the files, same will happen shortly with my FC files.
Our jurisdictions are different, and I'm not casting dispersions. I also don't know what your catechism contains.

What I will say is that I'm obligated NOT to do what you are doing. I'm also obligated to prevent others from doing it if it's in my power to prevent it.

So...With that said....

Hand the paper back to your instructor and ask him to spend more time with you so you can learn it properly.

I learned it after hours and hour and hours of repetition. By myself. I've struggled with it to the point of tears. While I totally understand your limitations due to medical reasons, I don't condone your methods.

I'm teaching an EA the catechism, and he has asked to write bits of it down to help his memorization. I've told him absolutely and positively that he cannot.

My Brother, If I can do it, you most certainly can too.

<EDIT: I read Patrick's post about the catechism differences, but I'm still obliged to feel that it's really not right that we do this sort of thing.>
 

Zack

Active Member
A difference in jurisdictions is all it is.
In mine the entire catechism is in code/cypher except for the WTs.
Just for the record, it is 1808 words.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Our jurisdictions are different, and I'm not casting dispersions. I also don't know what your catechism contains.

What I will say is that I'm obligated NOT to do what you are doing. I'm also obligated to prevent others from doing it if it's in my power to prevent it.

So...With that said....

Hand the paper back to your instructor and ask him to spend more time with you so you can learn it properly.

I learned it after hours and hour and hours of repetition. By myself. I've struggled with it to the point of tears. While I totally understand your limitations due to medical reasons, I don't condone your methods.

I'm teaching an EA the catechism, and he has asked to write bits of it down to help his memorization. I've told him absolutely and positively that he cannot.

My Brother, If I can do it, you most certainly can too.

<EDIT: I read Patrick's post about the catechism differences, but I'm still obliged to feel that it's really not right that we do this sort of thing.>
In Wisconsin, there is the Wisconsin Program, it includes background information about Freemasonry and it includes a "Posting Key", that contains both clear english and cypher. All the sign, grips, and words are in strings of letters (and they are confusing without a Brother who knows the meanings).

I respect that you are concerned and I have a great respect for you Brother Gary who loves Freemasonry as much as I do.
:)
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
<EDIT: I read Patrick's post about the catechism differences, but I'm still obliged to feel that it's really not right that we do this sort of thing.>
And if we were in Florida and Russ (Duncan) was a Fellowcraft in a Floridian Lodge, I would agree with you. However, he is a Fellowcraft in a Wisconsin Lodge and is obligated to do things the Wisconsin way. I, too, am concerned about this practice, but it takes different people different ways to learn, and, as previously stated, he's not technically outside of Code here.

Now, I have counseled Russ on the phone about this and have suggested that he destroy any recording and that he NOT MAKE ANOTHER, for no other reason than to avoid this kind of debate in future. However, and allow me to make this very clear, Russ is not outside of Wisconsin Code. Technically, at any rate. I think that what he's done here may be slightly ill-advised (just because of the controversy it engenders), but, again, he is not in violation of Wisconsin Code. Therefore, to tell him that "it's not really right" is incorrect. It's not really right in Florida (and most other states that I know of) but it's "minimally okay" in Wisconsin.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
And if we were in Florida and Russ (Duncan) was a Fellowcraft in a Floridian Lodge, I would agree with you. However, he is a Fellowcraft in a Wisconsin Lodge and is obligated to do things the Wisconsin way. I, too, am concerned about this practice, but it takes different people different ways to learn, and, as previously stated, he's not technically outside of Code here.

Now, I have counseled Russ on the phone about this and have suggested that he destroy any recording and that he NOT MAKE ANOTHER, for no other reason than to avoid this kind of debate in future. However, and allow me to make this very clear, Russ is not outside of Wisconsin Code. Technically, at any rate. I think that what he's done here may be slightly ill-advised (just because of the controversy it engenders), but, again, he is not in violation of Wisconsin Code. Therefore, to tell him that "it's not really right" is incorrect. It's not really right in Florida (and most other states that I know of) but it's "minimally okay" in Wisconsin.
Ill-advised, corrected, and not repeated. I greatly in debt to all of you, my E-Brothers, for a better understanding of FM across the globe.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
And if we were in Florida and Russ (Duncan) was a Fellowcraft in a Floridian Lodge, I would agree with you. However, he is a Fellowcraft in a Wisconsin Lodge and is obligated to do things the Wisconsin way. I, too, am concerned about this practice, but it takes different people different ways to learn, and, as previously stated, he's not technically outside of Code here.

Now, I have counseled Russ on the phone about this and have suggested that he destroy any recording and that he NOT MAKE ANOTHER, for no other reason than to avoid this kind of debate in future. However, and allow me to make this very clear, Russ is not outside of Wisconsin Code. Technically, at any rate. I think that what he's done here may be slightly ill-advised (just because of the controversy it engenders), but, again, he is not in violation of Wisconsin Code. Therefore, to tell him that "it's not really right" is incorrect. It's not really right in Florida (and most other states that I know of) but it's "minimally okay" in Wisconsin.

And there it is , the differences in jurisdictions . So if Bro. Russ is within the code of Wisconsin , then he is golden .

I have read on-line where some Jurisdictions allow the Secretary to use a recording device during meetings and then transcribe them at his leisure . These are not allowed in my Lodge . I have read where Masters and Past Masters have referred to themselves as "Worshipful" Masters , that is a clear violation of not only my Lodge's by-laws , but also my Grand Lodge's constitution because "Worshipful " is a title of respect from the craft to the Master and not part of the title of that office . And I could go on.......

Laws , rules and regulations vary from one jurisdiction to another and we can not expect them all to be the same . Each jurisdiction will govern themselves (and their members) accordingly as they see fit . This is why I try to stay out of these types of conversations .
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
And there it is , the differences in jurisdictions . So if Bro. Russ is within the code of Wisconsin , then he is golden .

I have read on-line where some Jurisdictions allow the Secretary to use a recording device during meetings and then transcribe them at his leisure . These are not allowed in my Lodge . I have read where Masters and Past Masters have referred to themselves as "Worshipful" Masters , that is a clear violation of not only my Lodge's by-laws , but also my Grand Lodge's constitution because "Worshipful " is a title of respect from the craft to the Master and not part of the title of that office . And I could go on.......

Laws , rules and regulations vary from one jurisdiction to another and we can not expect them all to be the same . Each jurisdiction will govern themselves (and their members) accordingly as they see fit . This is why I try to stay out of these types of conversations .
Ash, let me go a little further in my argument: if you were to say that The Grand Lodge of Wisconsin is wrong in using the type of posting it does, then I would be all in favor of that argument. In fact, I think that Wisconsin would be well-advised to go back to the original posting catechisms and add the public information section to that. But, to say that a member of any Grand Lodge who abides by their local Code is somehow wrong? Nope, can't abide that one. AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY: GL Forida sez that PHA Masons are clandestine. I cannot fault any Mason in Florida from following their Code, no matter how much I dislike it. But I CAN and DO fault GL Florida for not recognizing PHA as regular. See the difference?
 

Zack

Active Member
Ash, let me go a little further in my argument: if you were to say that The Grand Lodge of Wisconsin is wrong in using the type of posting it does, then I would be all in favor of that argument. In fact, I think that Wisconsin would be well-advised to go back to the original posting catechisms and add the public information section to that. But, to say that a member of any Grand Lodge who abides by their local Code is somehow wrong? Nope, can't abide that one. AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY: GL Forida sez that PHA Masons are clandestine. I cannot fault any Mason in Florida from following their Code, no matter how much I dislike it. But I CAN and DO fault GL Florida for not recognizing PHA as regular. See the difference?
A point well made. Thank you.
 
G

Gary

Guest
And if we were in Florida and Russ (Duncan) was a Fellowcraft in a Floridian Lodge, I would agree with you. However, he is a Fellowcraft in a Wisconsin Lodge and is obligated to do things the Wisconsin way. I, too, am concerned about this practice, but it takes different people different ways to learn, and, as previously stated, he's not technically outside of Code here.

Now, I have counseled Russ on the phone about this and have suggested that he destroy any recording and that he NOT MAKE ANOTHER, for no other reason than to avoid this kind of debate in future. However, and allow me to make this very clear, Russ is not outside of Wisconsin Code. Technically, at any rate. I think that what he's done here may be slightly ill-advised (just because of the controversy it engenders), but, again, he is not in violation of Wisconsin Code. Therefore, to tell him that "it's not really right" is incorrect. It's not really right in Florida (and most other states that I know of) but it's "minimally okay" in Wisconsin.
Bro. Russ and I have discussed this also. I never said he was in violation of Wisconsin code. In fact, I recognized that his jurisdiction may be different than mine.

I was however, trying to point out our obligation and that there may be a better way to accomplish his goal than walk into a gray area "minimally okay" as you put it. Just because there isn't a law or rule that specifically points out this issue doesn't necessarily make it right. What does your moral compass tell you?

He said himself that the very issue had crossed his mind. I digress, If it's OK in Wisconsin, then so be it.

No argument here Brothers, I'm just a Mason passionate about the Craft not like yourselves. Because of that, I step in doo doo once in a while. This was apparently one of those times. I'm sorry I said anything.
 
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