Circumcision

[Ashlar2006]

My parents made the decision to have the procedure done on me as a baby and I am glad they did . I would most definitely had it done as an adult , but I am glad I did not have to go through the discomfort of pain , ripping stitches etc; etc; .

All these people who think they know what is best for other people is getting old . Parents suing McDonalds because their children are fat . People telling others that they can not own guns , people telling others they can not spank their children and on and on and on .

 

[Gary]

To Gary:
Ant eaters? I never heard that one, albeit it's a bit funny. I was born in Europe where circumcision is not the norm, except for Jews and Muslims. So I guess I'm a 'Skinhead.'
I've never heard of anyone getting penile cancer, let alone diseases from having a tusk, since most people these days bathe or shower daily.
These silly beliefs are mostly U.S. idiocincracies and customs, no different really from the difference in refusal to adopt metric conversions.

Touche! LOL

 

[Ashlar2006]

In the words of Elaine on "Seinfeld" when asked by Jerry if she has ever seen one uncircumcised she stated , "It had no face , no personality !" . I always found that funny .

Sorry to go off script , just had to say that .

 

[Gary]

Even though this discussion is somewhat of a personal nature, it is interesting to see the cultural differences.

 

[CoachN]

Roman Catholic infants are baptized. Many believe that it relieves the child from "original sin", and without that baptism, the child would not gain access to heaven should he or she die before receiving the sacrament. When they reach an age of responsibility, usually early teens, they are then confirmed. At confirmation, they take vows very similar to those their godparents took on behalf of them when they were an infant. I had never heard the term "Christening" used within the catholic faith, but had heard it used amongst protestant friends. I had always taken the two words as interchangeable. It is my understanding that Baptists will only baptize an individual when they have reached an age of understanding, but I really no little about their faith.

See! Even you are using the words interchangably.

I'm a RRC (born into it and my first 21 years were in the fold) and I always heard the words used interchangably -- but not with the meaning assigned to it by Baptist. The meaning assigned to the word "baptism" is not the same for baptists and RCs. Yes, it is an "original sin" thing, or at least, that's what RCs are told.

 

[Duncan1574]

Squirrel: 4,000 years ago (approx.), man stands on a mountaintop looking into a bright light with a look of confusion, ""You want us to cut the end of WHAT off?". (Poor Moses)

 

[BukeyeJackson]

My parents made the decision to have the procedure done on me as a baby and I am glad they did . I would most definitely had it done as an adult , but I am glad I did not have to go through the discomfort of pain , ripping stitches etc; etc; .

All these people who think they know what is best for other people is getting old . Parents suing McDonalds because their children are fat . People telling others that they can not own guns , people telling others they can not spank their children and on and on and on .

Agreed! This that covers my whole spectrum of problems. I don't know anyone in my family who has kept their turtle neck. Mine wasn't done at the hospital immediately (my parents weren't married and my father wasn't asked) which resulted in me going back atg crawling age. According to my parents I stopped crawling for a bit.

Squirrel: 4,000 years ago (approx.), man stands on a mountaintop looking into a bright light with a look of confusion, ""You want us to cut the end of WHAT off?". (Poor Moses)

I bring to you these 15 <smash> 10, 10 commandments!

I could see the look of shock and the outcries when he told everyone else!

 

[DavisB]

Squirrel: 4,000 years ago (approx.), man stands on a mountaintop looking into a bright light with a look of confusion, ""You want us to cut the end of WHAT off?". (Poor Moses)

Yea then he had to go back and have that conversation with his sons....

 

[Winter]

Circumcision is so important to us that G-d was going to kill Moses, the most holy man that ever lived, because he neglected to circumcise his son at the appropriate time. He was saved because his wife Ziporah did the deed with a rock!

 

[Gary]

Circumcision is so important to us that G-d was going to kill Moses, the most holy man that ever lived, because he neglected to circumcise his son at the appropriate time. He was saved because his wife Ziporah did the deed with a rock!

All I can say is... OUCH!

Seriously though, I'm going to ask a question... Why is circumcision in particular such an important thing in reference to the covenant with G-d?

I don't ask to provoke arguments, I ask out of ignorance, and a true interest in this subject. Politics aside, I want more information from a religious perspective.

 

[Ashlar2006]

You beat me to it . I was going to ask this myself but did not want to show my ignorance on the subject .

 

[Gary]

You beat me to it . I was going to ask this myself but did not want to show my ignorance on the subject .

I ain't skeered! LOL... Besides, as a "newer" Master Mason, I can claim ignorance and get away with it easier...

This subject is controversial, but it is definitely interesting. I'm glad we have Brothers willing to participate with different views on the subject.

 

[Winter]

Rabbi Simmons gives a great short explanation better than I could.

In Kabbalistic terms, the foreskin symbolizes a barrier which prevents growth. For example, when the Torah speaks about getting close to G-d, it calls upon us to "remove the Orlah, the foreskin of your heart" (Deut. 10:16).

When Abraham circumcised himself at age 99, G-d added the letter "heh" to his name. "Heh" is part of G-d's own name, signifying that through Bris Milah, the human being adds a dimension of spirituality to the physical body.

It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive. That's why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow.

Another aspect of circumcision is that it is integral to Jewish identity. This point was made quite powerfully by a movie called "Europa Europa," It is the true story about a young Jewish boy trying to escape detection by the Nazis. The boy resembles an Aryan and speaks German fluently, so he poses as a non-Jew and is eventually recruited into an elite training program for the next generation of SS officers.

This boy was on his way to a fully non-Jewish life, except for one thing: His circumcision. He couldn't hide it. And that is what kept him Jewish throughout the entire ordeal.

The man survived the war, and made a new life for himself in Israel. Instead, he may have ended up becoming a Nazi officer. It all depended on the Bris.

 

[Ashlar2006]

VERY interesting . Thanks for sharing Bro. Winter !

 

[BukeyeJackson]

I feel a bit more enlightened.

 

[Windrider]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I think laws forbidding a medical procedure are silly. If an adult makes a medical decision for a child they are responsible for, they will have to live with the results as the child becomes an adult. Unfortunately, many parents make decisions based on flawed reasoning, much like the tin foil hat crowd's opinion of Masonry.

As to the origin of circumcision as a religious practice, I believe this relates to the early times when most Jews were nomads and did not have access to sanitation. Jewish dietary laws are remarkably similar to survival rules. Compare any reputable desert survival guide to Kosher rules and you will see remarkable similarities. Circumcision may be an other example of the Rabbinical class passing on practical knowledge through religious teachings. These rules kept the Jews alive and healthy in times when porous wooden bowls were the norm for dinnerware and mixing the bacteria from meat and dairy could be fatal. Circumcision makes it much easier to keep Willie clean when baths are rare.

 

[CoachN]

...As to the origin of circumcision as a religious practice, I believe this relates to the early times when most Jews were nomads and did not have access to sanitation. Jewish dietary laws are remarkably similar to survival rules. Compare any reputable desert survival guide to Kosher rules and you will see remarkable similarities. Circumcision may be an other example of the Rabbinical class passing on practical knowledge through religious teachings. These rules kept the Jews alive and healthy in times when porous wooden bowls were the norm for dinnerware and mixing the bacteria from meat and dairy could be fatal. Circumcision makes it much easier to keep Willie clean when baths are rare.

That's exactly what I thought. So many other "rules" fall into simple actions and habits that promote health and survival. Oye!

 

[Winter]

The common theory that most biblical Jewish laws stem from basic sanitary practices has been often debunked. The safe preparation of food and basic hygiene were well known before Judaism and the people who became Jews were doing just fine before adopting the strict rules required by G-d.

The laws were put into place for one reason and one reason only: to allow the Jewish people to lead a more holy life and make a stronger connection with G-d.

 

[CoachN]

As much as I want to believe that this connection has been debunked, I do know that the most simplest of habits can become canonized within a culture over time. Evidence of "other ways" to survive only means that others have found other ways to survive. It doesn't mean that survival practiced were not originally well intentioned and then eventually canonized into religious law.

 

[DavisB]

The common theory that most biblical Jewish laws stem from basic sanitary practices has been often debunked. The safe preparation of food and basic hygiene were well known before Judaism and the people who became Jews were doing just fine before adopting the strict rules required by G-d.

The laws were put into place for one reason and one reason only: to allow the Jewish people to lead a more holy life and make a stronger connection with G-d.

That very well may have been the only reason that the Jewish people implemented the laws in their life, but it doesn't mean that most of the laws were not also good sanitary practices. While the Jews were living a lifestyle in order to bring themselves closer to G-d, wouldn't it make sense that G-d would require laws that would benefit his chosen people, or give them some kind of advantage?

I have heard before (and in my quick Google search I couldn't find any reputable source to back me up) that a newborn's Vitamin K levels peak around the end of the first week. If that is true, then that would make sense why circumcision was traditionally preformed 8 days after birth. The abundant Vitamin K would help with blood clotting. But, I am not sure that the info is accurate.