Circumcision

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FamilyMan

Fidelis ad Mortem
I think I have to agree. I always feel torn in a situation like that one. Because, personally, I have very strong feelings on the matter but I have a difficult time coming up with a logical argument to place my own morals onto someone else. I don't mind explaining to someone why I think a certain practice is wrong in an effort to convince them of the same, but I don't feel comfortable with using legislation to make them act the same way.
Seconded.

For example. In some parts of Africa, the rape of a virgin is considered to be an effective treatment for HIV infection. In order to ensure that the victim is truly virgin, this often includes children. At what point does there have to be an absolute drawn in the sand, where despite local belief and custom, something must be condemned as wrong?
Respectfully sir, I do not believe that you are comparing apples with apples. Infant circumcision, while being held by the AAP as "unnecessary", has not to my knowledge been linked to long term psychological suffering. The same cannot be said for the forced rape of a child, exposing them to a terminal illness at the same time no less.
 
G

Gary

Guest
On a lighter not...

Who'd have thought that a conversation about genitalia would go on for 7 pages????

I know FMH has been slow lately, but it's odd that this is the number one topic on the board. :rolleyes:

Back on topic... Good point FamilyMan. I think you said it better than I did. My point was that if women had a say in these situations, they wouldn't have such atrocities occurring in those cultures. And you are correct (IMHO). It's not an equal comparison to the subject we are discussing.
 

Casey

MM, RAM, 32nd.
Is it equal? No, of course not. Just an example of the dangers I see in moral relativism.
 

Brandon

New Member
Then that's their choice! I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it. Who are we to legislate the morality of another culture?
It is about protecting human rights. In the same right, if you take that response, who were we to stop Germany about 60 years ago. Were not they practicing their culture? I am not defending what they did, but I am calling you to think instead of repeat the same drivel people often do when they do not understand the issue. You obviously don't. You also probably don't even realize that circumcision was not even mentioned in the originial Torah.

The point is, I have no problem if people want to believe in fairy tales and the like. They can practice what they want as long as they do not force their practices on other individuals. Kids are independent individuals and not the property of their parents. This is the whole point of the movement. They are not eliminating circumcision for those who want to practice it for themselves, they are trying to protect the child's rights to have complete and fully functioning genitalia. When he is old enough, then he can decide for himself if he wants to mutilate his penis. Thats it. It is only controversial because some people want to force the practice on other individuals. Just because someone is Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, they should not have be allowed to force their practices on another individual. To do so is tyranny and against Masonic Tradition.
 

Gary2112

Troll Stomper
Staff member
Wow... Did you just ressurect an old thread, and compare circumcision to the Nazi's and the holocaust? Really????
 

Brandon

New Member
Wow... Did you just ressurect an old thread, and compare circumcision to the Nazi's and the holocaust? Really????
You were the one that brought up that we should respect the practices of a foreign culture, not me. I brought up the 1940's German comparison because it is a foreign culture to us Americans, yet I expect nobody with any sense of decency would apply your same comment to them. I was pointing out the flaws in your logic. The point I was making, if you would have read through my entire argument, is that just because a practice happens to be common to a particular culture at any one time does not mean it deserves respect or should be allowed. Besides, circumcision kills hundreds of babies in the US alone every year, mostly due to blood loss from severing of the arteries in the penis. This is murder and it is being forced on a group of people who cannot defend themselves. Why then would you defend such a practice when it maims all and kills many, and is done on the unwilling? Sounds an awful lot like another set of events, doesn't it? This is my point. Murder and violence are the same despite the groups doing the killing or maiming, the methods they use to do it, or the justification that they give. I just hate to see these events continue to happen and more people get hurt. Why don't you share the same concern for your fellow man?

As for the date, I can see I was a little late to the game. Nevertheless, the practice continues, so then, at the very least, so should the debate.
 

Brandon

New Member
(sniff, sniff)
Do you smell something?
And Lodges wonder why the average age of the members, including my own, is around 72/73 years of age! Don't take anything I say for granted, look it up for yourself. The reason why I responded to these comments is because I did not see any informed opinion whatsoever on this issue. This is not about religion or culture, its a human rights issue. Whether I like it or not, and whether you like it or not, we are members of the same fraternity. Thus as members, our express thoughts and actions as Masons reflect upon each other.

All I am attempting to do is provoke a little more thought into this argument. I have always been of the belief that if one was not willing or able to argue for a position rationally, one should not hold that position. Whether one likes it or not, circumcision is a form of segregated institutionalized violence in our country, and thus is comparable to other forms of segregated institutionalized violence. As of now, simply for being born male in the US, there is a good chance that child will be put through this barbaric practice, and in many cases even die from it. This is a fact! How is this defensible?

I remind you, on this website you are giving your opinions on public issues as Freemasons. Our biggest problem is that too many people believe we are some sort of religion and/or political force, and this contributes to that idea. Look up the facts, or contact me and I will send you the scientific papers. Contact "Jews Against Circumcision," "Doctors Against Circumcision," "Christians Against Circumcision," etc. Contact the Royal Dutch Medical Association, the Royal Australian College of Physicians, the Canadian Pediatric Society, the British Medical Association, etc. Ask them the facts, you will get the same response.

I am not here to piss anyone off. I only wrote my original response to inform a fellow brother of the truth behind the practice in hopes that he and other brethren take the time to really think and research this for themselves. If you do, I am quite confident you will see things differently. In the future, though, perhaps its best not to give your political opinions as Masons, so that other Masons are not obliged demonstrate that not all Freemasons are so prejudiced.
 

credo

New Member
How ironic that this fight against choice is occurring in San Francisco. I venture a guess the majority of the voting public there support choice in the abortion argument and that juvenile girls can get contraceptives & Plan B pills without parental knowledge.
 

CoachN

Builder Builder
Forgive for being heartless to the arguments put forth. I simply do not have a dog in this fight. (snicker)
 

Brandon

New Member

Its a reference to our fraternity dying out. That actual age range applies to my lodge, but I was told is quite accurate when one looks at most lodges throughout the US. What is most troubling is that we clearly do not appeal to the younger generation, which is the only means by which we will survive.

When I speak to my friends, colleagues, and relatives about Freemasonry, only after they inquire, I often find that their impression of our fraternity is that it is "too dogmatic," "too outdated," and worst of all "a front for religion."

How am I to successfully argue otherwise when we have forms, such as this one, where Freemasons seem to only repeat a religious organization's statement on genital mutilation, with no regard to science and common sense? Believe it or not, this very subject actually came up in a discussion of Freemasonry's "ridiculous obedience to religious dogma." Now you and I know that Freemasonry issues no policy on such things, but when you get a group of people that openly post on political issues, not as individuals, but as Freemasons, it hurts the fraternity.

My statements were supposed to provoke a little bit of surprise. I wanted members here that disagreed with me to try and prove me wrong by going out and doing a bit of research themselves to try and falsify my statements. What they would have found would have been thought provoking. All I received were comments one usually resorts to when one cannot logically defend their position. So yes, I too can see why our fraternity is dying out. Our society is becoming more scientific and less religious, and our fraternity does not seem to be able to keep up with the trend. That is a pretty big problem for the future of Freemasonry.
 

Brandon

New Member
How ironic that this fight against choice is occurring in San Francisco. I venture a guess the majority of the voting public there support choice in the abortion argument and that juvenile girls can get contraceptives & Plan B pills without parental knowledge.

It is not just occurring in San Francisco. Ryan McAllister is a professor of non-linear dynamics and biophysics at Georgetown University. He has spoken out about this practice. Jonas Salk, the inventor of the Polio Vaccine and a Jewish male, has given his name to support legislation to ban the practice, and he was from New York. Ashley Montagu, a Jewish anthropologist from Britain, also supported legislation to ban the practice. All of the foreign medical organizations I listed also want to ban the practice, and they are obviously not from San Francisco. Finland is talking about banning the practice. Germany is still fighting over banning the practice. It is a much wider phenomenon that you give credit.

Also, I have NEVER mentioned that I was in support of everything San Francisco tries to do. One must; however, give credit where credit is due.
 

CoachN

Builder Builder
Still looking for a dog to put into the fight. They are all looking at me, shaking their heads and licking more interesting things...
 

credo

New Member
It is not just occurring in San Francisco. Ryan McAllister is a professor of non-linear dynamics and biophysics at Georgetown University. He has spoken out about this practice. Jonas Salk, the inventor of the Polio Vaccine and a Jewish male, has given his name to support legislation to ban the practice, and he was from New York. Ashley Montagu, a Jewish anthropologist from Britain, also supported legislation to ban the practice. All of the foreign medical organizations I listed also want to ban the practice, and they are obviously not from San Francisco. Finland is talking about banning the practice. Germany is still fighting over banning the practice. It is a much wider phenomenon that you give credit.

Also, I have NEVER mentioned that I was in support of everything San Francisco tries to do. One must; however, give credit where credit is due.
I wasn't stating it's only San Francisco. I was just commenting on their hypocrisy. Also, nothing was directed towards your stance.
 

Gary2112

Troll Stomper
Staff member
And Lodges wonder why the average age of the members, including my own, is around 72/73 years of age! Don't take anything I say for granted, look it up for yourself. The reason why I responded to these comments is because I did not see any informed opinion whatsoever on this issue. This is not about religion or culture, its a human rights issue. Whether I like it or not, and whether you like it or not, we are members of the same fraternity. Thus as members, our express thoughts and actions as Masons reflect upon each other.

All I am attempting to do is provoke a little more thought into this argument. I have always been of the belief that if one was not willing or able to argue for a position rationally, one should not hold that position. Whether one likes it or not, circumcision is a form of segregated institutionalized violence in our country, and thus is comparable to other forms of segregated institutionalized violence. As of now, simply for being born male in the US, there is a good chance that child will be put through this barbaric practice, and in many cases even die from it. This is a fact! How is this defensible?

I remind you, on this website you are giving your opinions on public issues as Freemasons. Our biggest problem is that too many people believe we are some sort of religion and/or political force, and this contributes to that idea. Look up the facts, or contact me and I will send you the scientific papers. Contact "Jews Against Circumcision," "Doctors Against Circumcision," "Christians Against Circumcision," etc. Contact the Royal Dutch Medical Association, the Royal Australian College of Physicians, the Canadian Pediatric Society, the British Medical Association, etc. Ask them the facts, you will get the same response.

I am not here to piss anyone off. I only wrote my original response to inform a fellow brother of the truth behind the practice in hopes that he and other brethren take the time to really think and research this for themselves. If you do, I am quite confident you will see things differently. In the future, though, perhaps its best not to give your political opinions as Masons, so that other Masons are not obliged demonstrate that not all Freemasons are so prejudiced.
Fascinating. Your first posts on this forum are quite a bit on the offensive and condescending. Any sense of decency?, if Id bothered to read your entire post?

I have read all of your posts. I also noticed that you chose to quote only part of my post, and decided to "school" me with your self appointed superior opinion and intellect. Im not particularly impressed with your entrance.

While I respect your view, I don't appreciate your approach to the discussion.

Rather than introduce yourself in the welcome section of this forum, why did you choose such a controversial topic to make your entrance?
 
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