Hermetic

Thoughts on it..... I dont know anything about it but did read some on it on a different forum and the word "occultism" came up a good bit in conjunction with hermeticism
 

Gary2112

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Thoughts on it..... I dont know anything about it but did read some on it on a different forum and the word "occultism" came up a good bit in conjunction with hermeticism
So what is your interpretation of "occultism"? Is it that which is hidden (veiled) or is it a more dogmatic definition....(hold on... I'm looking for the holy water and crucifix...)?
 
So what is your interpretation of "occultism"? Is it that which is hidden (veiled) or is it a more dogmatic definition....(hold on... I'm looking for the holy water and crucifix...)?
Interpretations of words is where the issues begin..... if people are not meaning the "dogmatic" understanding of words then why not use a different word that will not cause it to be grouped in with the bad connotation. The use of words like "occultism" and associations with Freemasonry/Masonry is where the lay persons gets the impression we are evil doers.... I do not have numbers but I feel very comfortable in saying if you talked with John or Jane Q. Public and asked them what "occultism" is they will not have a favorable reply. Are they 100% certain of the dictionary definition.... probably not, but then again we within the masonic world dont always use words in the dictionary definition way.

Now do I think the use of "occultism" in the hermetic thread is meaning devil worship, sacrifices, witchcraft or sorcery.....no....well I hope that is not what is meant.......
 

Gary2112

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That is why I asked my question the way that I did. "Occult" is not a dirty word. It's a bastardized word. The dictionary definition has been corrupted by those who seek to use it to bash another's difference in belief.

Freemasonry by it's very nature of secrecy is occult. So, if you buy into the rhetoric, Freemasonry is Witchcraft, devil worship, and whatever else you want to apply "occult" to. The Malleus Maleficarum comes to mind.

There is an old saying "The masses are asses". I am not concerned with what John or Jane Q. Public thinks. I am a free thinker, and a Mason. I can find the truth on my own.
 
So why use the word "occult" ....it just adds to the negative rhetoric towards the fraternity. Whether those within the fraternity use it in a bad way or not is irrelevant, it is a word that brings a bad impression on the fraternity and I see no reason to give the anti's any ammunition.

I also believe if you would ask John Q Mason if he believed Freemasonry/Masonry is remotely connected in any way to the occult you would get a resounding NO WAY........ nor would they want the two linked in anyway what so ever.......
 

Gary2112

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So why use the word "occult" ....it just adds to the negative rhetoric towards the fraternity. Whether those within the fraternity use it in a bad way or not is irrelevant, it is a word that brings a bad impression on the fraternity and I see no reason to give the anti's any ammunition.

I also believe if you would ask John Q Mason if he believed Freemasonry/Masonry is remotely connected in any way to the occult you would get a resounding NO WAY........ nor would they want the two linked in anyway what so ever.......

Let's use some Logic here. If you are telling me that we should not use a word because someone else decided to use it in a negative fashion, I'd say good luck with that! There are many many words that have taken on a negative meaning because someone decided to use them inappropriately.

The "anti's" will have ammunition regardless of what we say or do. As far as John Q. Mason, you just made my point. Rather than use the word "occult" as a term for veiled or hidden, you just used it in a negative fashion.

The term occult is an astronomical term. One of the 7 L&S's. Are we a society with secrets? Then most definitely we are an occult society.

To quote Albert Mackey; " The survival of Freemasonry depends on the intelligence of her disciples"...

I submit that rather than conform to the will of an ignorant society, we step up and educate them.
 
Let's use some Logic here. If you are telling me that we should not use a word because someone else decided to use it in a negative fashion, I'd say good luck with that! There are many many words that have taken on a negative meaning because someone decided to use them inappropriately.
Yep...kinda like a certain "N" word that is now one of the most taboo words used by the general public.

The "anti's" will have ammunition regardless of what we say or do. As far as John Q. Mason, you just made my point. Rather than use the word "occult" as a term for veiled or hidden, you just used it in a negative fashion.
I used it the same contexts than many use it..... it is not wrong in the way I used it....just not in the same connotation in which another might use it.

The term occult is an astronomical term. One of the 7 L&S's. Are we a society with secrets? Then most definitely we are an occult society.
In main stream astronomy??? Or Esoteric astronomy?


To quote Albert Mackey; " The survival of Freemasonry depends on the intelligence of her disciples"...
Many well educated masons attribute AP's work to nothing more than opinion.....

I submit that rather than conform to the will of an ignorant society, we step up and educate them.
To quote a good brother:
I'd say good luck with that!
 

Gary2112

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Yep...kinda like a certain "N" word that is now one of the most taboo words used by the general public.
You could use that word, but I was thinking in more modern times. How about the term Liberal? Let's not debate this. We are on the same page. I was just making a point.

I used it the same contexts than many use it..... it is not wrong in the way I used it....just not in the same connotation in which another might use it.
That's just it, if you use a term out of context enough times, when does that make it acceptable as the "new" definition for the word? Ignorance is no excuse.


In main stream astronomy??? Or Esoteric astronomy?
Mainstream Astronomy. Ever see a lunar eclipse? That is the result of one celestial body occulting another (casting a shadow). I'll not try to muddy the water here by discussing Esoterics.




Many well educated masons attribute AP's work to nothing more than opinion.....

To quote a good brother:
AP's work is his opinion and interpretation, just like you have yours and I have mine. Our interpretation of Symbolism can be just as accurate as Pike's. Provided that we do the Work required to understand and not be ignorant.
 

FF Sparky

Member
I had something to reply with, but lost my train of thought and couldn't word it right. It will come back to me at 3 in the morning...lol
 

Gary2112

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I had something to reply with, but lost my train of thought and couldn't word it right. It will come back to me at 3 in the morning...lol
Fireman and I go at it all the time (debate). He said the same thing as you did in the beginning. I'll tell you what I told him.... Just spit it out. We'll smooth out the rough edges as we go. :1-wink-grin:
 
You could use that word, but I was thinking in more modern times. How about the term Liberal? Let's not debate this. We are on the same page. I was just making a point.
As was I:1-wink-grin:



That's just it, if you use a term out of context enough times, when does that make it acceptable as the "new" definition for the word? Ignorance is no excuse.
It is not a new definition..... occultism does include satanic worship, witchcraft etc..... which in many eyes are not considered good..... it is not ignorance....it is opinion or interpretation.... just like AP's works..... unless you consider his opinions ignorance as well.




Mainstream Astronomy. Ever see a lunar eclipse? That is the result of one celestial body occulting another (casting a shadow). I'll not try to muddy the water here by discussing Esoterics.
Had never heard it used in this way....






AP's work is his opinion and interpretation, just like you have yours and I have mine. Our interpretation of Symbolism can be just as accurate as Pike's. Provided that we do the Work required to understand and not be ignorant.
How do we define ignorance when it comes to symbolism??? It is all subject to interpretation and if we do not come to the same conclusion is one ignorant while the other is not???? AP is known to have been a fan of "mystics" that have been proven to have made up more stuff than was proven....

I will send you a PM with a quote from someone we both like in regards to AP and his interpretations....I do not wish to involve him in this discussion in public
 

Gary2112

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As was I:1-wink-grin:
Yup. nuff said.




It is not a new definition..... occultism does include satanic worship, witchcraft etc..... which in many eyes are not considered good..... it is not ignorance....it is opinion or interpretation.... just like AP's works..... unless you consider his opinions ignorance as well.
Ahh... it may not be new, but it has been (and still is) used out of context. And I do believe that it is used inappropriately to define evil instead of "hidden from view". So yes, it is ignorance (as in not knowing any better or refusing to use proper grammar). Oops... That was one of the 7 L&S's too. My bad.





Had never heard it used in this way....
Another of the 7 L&S's. I'm an amateur astronomer. It's not a bad term at all my Brother. it's just used inappropriately. That fact that society has come to accept the wrong use of the word is the issue.



How do we define ignorance when it comes to symbolism??? It is all subject to interpretation and if we do not come to the same conclusion is one ignorant while the other is not???? AP is known to have been a fan of "mystics" that have been proven to have made up more stuff than was proven....

I will send you a PM with a quote from someone we both like in regards to AP and his interpretations....I do not wish to involve him in this discussion in public
How do you define ignorance? The same way that you can talk to a Freemason and know if he has done the Work or not. There are a set of base skill sets upon which the Builder Works.

Pike is not a new phenomenon. His work is relevant. His ideas may be different than yours or mine, but the Masonic concepts are applicable today. We could go to even more modern author's if you like. I know of one in particular who is an Alchemist. We could argue the validity of his work as well. Doing so is not productive, as it totally bypasses the reason the author put his work into print (which was to get Mason's to think outside of the box!).

Prove to me that Preston, Webb, or even Wilmshurst knew what they were talking about. it's all opinion/speculative. Are we not speculative Mason's? Once we speculate, we form the knowledge to become operative Builders.
 
Ahh... it may not be new, but it has been (and still is) used out of context. And I do believe that it is used inappropriately to define evil instead of "hidden from view". So yes, it is ignorance (as in not knowing any better or refusing to use proper grammar). Oops... That was one of the 7 L&S's too. My bad.
And many believe it is used to describe evil..... How is it not "ignorance" if you use it in the way you believe it to be correct and another person uses it in a way they believe it to be correct....some do consider satanism,witchcraft and sorcery(which fall into the occultism) to be evil. It is an opinion that either is used correct or incorrect....... and there is an old saying :"opinions are like a$$holes.... we all have one and they all stink". As far as the 7 L&S lets not forget Rhetoric..... and the way occultism is used fits well in that category





How do you define ignorance? The same way that you can talk to a Freemason and know if he has done the Work or not. There are a set of base skill sets upon which the Builder Works.

Pike is not a new phenomenon. His work is relevant. His ideas may be different than yours or mine, but the Masonic concepts are applicable today. We could go to even more modern author's if you like. I know of one in particular who is an Alchemist. We could argue the validity of his work as well. Doing so is not productive, as it totally bypasses the reason the author put his work into print (which was to get Mason's to think outside of the box!).

Prove to me that Preston, Webb, or even Wilmshurst knew what they were talking about. it's all opinion/speculative. Are we not speculative Mason's? Once we speculate, we form the knowledge to become operative Builders.
I dont believe you can prove any of the authors you mentioned or reference know what they are talking about...... that is why it is called an opinion/speculation....or dare I say interpretation ( sarcasm should be the 8th L&S)...... just like when we use certain word.... their use and definition can be left up to personal interpretation if one doesnt take the dictionary as the exact meaning (deism ring a bell.....????)
 

Gary2112

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And many believe it is used to describe evil..... How is it not "ignorance" if you use it in the way you believe it to be correct and another person uses it in a way they believe it to be correct....some do consider satanism,witchcraft and sorcery(which fall into the occultism) to be evil. It is an opinion that either is used correct or incorrect....... and there is an old saying :"opinions are like a$$holes.... we all have one and they all stink". As far as the 7 L&S lets not forget Rhetoric..... and the way occultism is used fits well in that category
It's the rhetoric of failure. Like I said earlier, if you use it out of context enough, when does it become an acceptable definition? we agree to disagree on this one Brother.







I dont believe you can prove any of the authors you mentioned or reference know what they are talking about...... that is why it is called an opinion/speculation....or dare I say interpretation ( sarcasm should be the 8th L&S)...... just like when we use certain word.... their use and definition can be left up to personal interpretation if one doesnt take the dictionary as the exact meaning (deism ring a bell.....????)
Again, Education is key here. So with that, I'll say this to those who choose ignorance over education;

Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet Act 1;



SAMPSON

I do bite my thumb, sir.

ABRAHAM

Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

SAMPSON

[Aside to GREGORY] Is the law of our side, if I say
ay?

GREGORY

No.

SAMPSON

No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I
bite my thumb, sir.

GREGORY

Do you quarrel, sir?

ABRAHAM

Quarrel sir! no, sir.

SAMPSON

If you do, sir, I am for you: I serve as good a man as you.

ABRAHAM

No better.

SAMPSON

Well, sir.

GREGORY

Say 'better:' here comes one of my master's kinsmen.

SAMPSON

Yes, better, sir.


I'll bet you a dollar that the allegory of that scene goes uninterpreted by many of it's readers.
 
It's the rhetoric of failure. Like I said earlier, if you use it out of context enough, when does it become an acceptable definition? we agree to disagree on this one Brother.
yea we will have to agree to disagree..... but it is an opinion that the word is being used out of context....


Allegory...... does that not allow for multiple interpretations??? I will bet you two dollars that no one can give a definitive, irrefutable answer as to exactly what Shakespeare intended for the mentioned passage. What you get out of it may or may not be what I got out of it...... that is part of the beauty of allegory...... it allows both of us to see different meanings while looking at the same thing.
 

Gary2112

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yea we will have to agree to disagree..... but it is an opinion that the word is being used out of context....


Allegory...... does that not allow for multiple interpretations??? I will bet you two dollars that no one can give a definitive, irrefutable answer as to exactly what Shakespeare intended for the mentioned passage. What you get out of it may or may not be what I got out of it...... that is part of the beauty of allegory...... it allows both of us to see different meanings while looking at the same thing.
It's not an opinion that the word is being used out of context. It's a fact. It's opinion to say the word is being used inappropriately. I gave you an scientific example of what occult means. If you use the term to say that witchcraft/demon worship is hidden from view or in the shadows (not well understood) then yes, that would be correct. But to say that occult literally means devil worship is incorrect.

Allegory allows for simple more literal interpretations with options for much deeper exploration. But sometimes an apple is just an apple.
 
It's not an opinion that the word is being used out of context. It's a fact. It's opinion to say the word is being used inappropriately. I gave you an scientific example of what occult means. If you use the term to say that witchcraft/demon worship is hidden from view or in the shadows (not well understood) then yes, that would be correct. But to say that occult literally means devil worship is incorrect.
:argue::4-thatsbad:

Allegory allows for simple more literal interpretations with options for much deeper exploration. But sometimes an apple is just an apple.
And sometimes an ear of corn ..........:1-wink:
 
EDIT NOTE:
Feel free to take a swipe at either views....we both have a good chin..... mine is tougher since I am not a wimpy hose jockey...
 
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