South Carolina Shrine Showdown

jaya

Active Member
If they separate it will affect both organizations. Some will join the shrine without joining a lodge and others will quit the shrine because they are not masonic any longer.
 

Gary2112

Troll Stomper
Staff member
If they separate it will affect both organizations. Some will join the shrine without joining a lodge and others will quit the shrine because they are not masonic any longer.
Ive seen quite a few join Masonry with the sole intention of joining the shrine.

I agree with your assessment. Id wager that there will be more who join the shrine than those who leave because it is no longer masonic.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
I do not think that would be a HUGE problem in my area . Many hard core Shriners would leave the Fraternity but it would be no great loss . I am only looking at my local Shrine here , but them breaking away would be in the their best interest as they are drying up because Masons are already leaving the Shrine in droves . I had some numbers that I thought were correct , but see now that when I asked , a certain Nobel low-balled them . In the last two years my local Shrine has lost close to 700 Nobels . Over 400 last year alone with very little interest in newer , younger Masons . I think they said they took in maybe 10 new members last year , and they draw membership from three different states as we are the nearest Shrine center in the area and most of these remaining members are all very old men . It does not bode well for them .

Most Masons in my area are tired of paying dues in all these other bodies and are now looking at what is important and what is not and are leaving most everything but the Craft Lodge . I know my old SR valley is in the same boat as my local Shrine and the YR too , to a lesser extent . Demits and NPDs' in these bodies are WAY up .

I do know many who want to be Shriners , but have no interest in being Masons .
 

2SONDAD

Husband, father, son, Mason.
The only Shriners I know are all officers or former officers in my Craft Lodge. They are so tied to the Craft Lodge, I couldn't fathom them leaving. Obviously that isn't the case everywhere. My experience is very limited.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
Someone beat me to it . Looks like this may spread , I was at a sister lodge last night and some newly demitted Shriners were complaining about our local Shrine refusing to drop from their rolls suspended/expelled Craft lodge members . They said that is why they demitted , and said this has been going on for years .

I honestly do not see how some Brethren can defend the Shrine if they do this . The Shrine's membership is either made up of Master Masons in good standing or they are open to anyone , they need to make up their minds because if you are suspended or expelled , you are not a Mason .
 

cemab4y

Member
The Shrine requires ALL members to be Master Masons in good standing. The definition is somewhat "elastic". Consider the case in Arkansas. A man was expelled from Arkansas Masonry. The legitimacy of the expulsion, is, shall we say: "questionable". The trial was a "kangaroo court", and was conducted not in compliance with the constitution and by-laws of Arkansas Masonry. The trial was a travesty. The individual who was expelled, was also a dual member of a lodge in Iowa. The Grand Lodge of Iowa refused to recognized the phony expulsion. The individual is still a Master Mason in "good standing" in Iowa.

The Imperial Shrine has decided to keep the man on the rolls, because he is still a Master Mason in good standing.

The South Carolina situation has some parallels.
 

goomba

Active Member
I haven't been a Mason for long (about a year). But I have seen this topic come up about 3 times in that year. Do any of the brethren who have been around for years ever remember another body with this problem.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
The Shrine requires ALL members to be Master Masons in good standing. The definition is somewhat "elastic". Consider the case in Arkansas. A man was expelled from Arkansas Masonry. The legitimacy of the expulsion, is, shall we say: "questionable". The trial was a "kangaroo court", and was conducted not in compliance with the constitution and by-laws of Arkansas Masonry. The trial was a travesty. The individual who was expelled, was also a dual member of a lodge in Iowa. The Grand Lodge of Iowa refused to recognized the phony expulsion. The individual is still a Master Mason in "good standing" in Iowa.

The Imperial Shrine has decided to keep the man on the rolls, because he is still a Master Mason in good standing.

The South Carolina situation has some parallels.

What happened in Ark. has no bearing on SC and many other states . The Shrine REFUSES to drop from their roles suspended/expelled MMs' . It goes on in my local Shrine temple and it goes on in many others . I have read the GM of SC's letter , have you ? Or are you just shooting from the hip and knee jerk defending the Shrine ?

I am tired of these Shrine apologetics , either the Shrine is for Master Masons in good standing or it is not and should break ties with Masonry and allow anyone and everyone in . I am not Shrine bashing , I would raise just as much hell if it was the YR , SR , OES etc; etc; , if you are open to Master Masons in good standing only , then these Master Masons should be in good standing , it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out . (leaving Arkansas out of the mix) The term is not "elastic" , it means in GOOD FREAKING STANDING , if a man has not paid his dues and does not have a paid up , up-to-date dues card then he IS NOT in good standing . If he has been expelled , then he IS NOT in good standing .

Do you Charles think it is fine for the Shrine to keep suspended Masons (some of whom who have been suspended for more than a few years in my local Shrine Temple and couple who were expelled for ...... never mind ) in good standing in the Shrine ? I believe I have read it myself on some forum where you have said that you would not be a member if they broke ties and allowed non-Masons in as members , well they are doing that very thing now ! A man suspended or expelled from Craft Masonry IS NOT a Mason .
 

Winter

I've been here before
The Shrine requires ALL members to be Master Masons in good standing. The definition is somewhat "elastic".
(Emphasis mine)

There is no way you can defend this statement. How is this definition elastic?

There is no defense for what the Shrine is doing. If the expulsion of the Mason was illegal according to Masonic law, there is an appeals process. The Shrine has no right or authority to decide if an expulsion is legitimate or not. At the very minimum a Noble should be suspended until a final decision is reached. And allowing a Noble to remain in good standing because the Mason holds dual membership in another jurisdiction is merely another example of the Shrine flexing its muscles. All you need to do is watch the video from the Imperial Potentate where he flat out declares that the Shrine is an independent organization not bound by the will of the Grand Master.

The Shrine does great work and nobody is trying to take that away. But, either they are an Appendant Body or not. If they are, they are subject to the laws and edicts of the Grand Lodge where they reside or they are not. I don't think it takes a genius to see that this situation is rapidly spreading and is only a matter of time before we are separate organizations.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
I agree Winter .

And Masons outside of Arkansas do not have the right or authority to decide if an expulsion is legitimate or not . A couple of Masonic bloggers (one of whom is an outspoken hater of mainstream Masonry in the South) posts one side of the story and we have Masons claiming that it is questionable and terms are thrown out like "Kangaroo court" and the Grand Lodge bashing begins . I know I will take some heat for what I just posted but I personally do not have a dog in that fight because I do not have all the facts .

The Shrine DOES do good work but they better figure out which side of their toast is buttered . If the imperial Potentate wants to be an independent body then let them go their own way . Might as well , when we Masons rent our local Shrine Temple , women come and go as they please and when we tell them to leave , this is a closed/tyled function and we get our butts chewed out . They think Shrine functions such as the Potentate's ball , poker runs , and fund raisers to throw more fund raisers takes precedence over Masonic functions and we are supposed to schedule Masonic degrees , meetings or what have you around their schedules .
 

cemab4y

Member
What happened in Ark. has no bearing on SC and many other states . The Shrine REFUSES to drop from their roles suspended/expelled MMs' . It goes on in my local Shrine temple and it goes on in many others . I have read the GM of SC's letter , have you ? Or are you just shooting from the hip and knee jerk defending the Shrine ?

--I have read the letter from the GM of SC. I find myself in agreement. The Shrine requires that ALL members be MMs in good standing. I support this requirement. (I have demitted from the Shrine, for some years, because of my international work). If a Shriner is legitimately expelled from craft Masonry, he should be also summarily expelled from the Shrine. When my career and life are more stable, I intend to re-join the Shrine. If the Shrine breaks entirely from Masonry, and permits anyone to join, I will not participate in the organization at all. Many people think that the Shrine was set up for the hospitals. Although I think the hospital program is fantastic, it is not the reason for the Shrine. The Shrine was set up in 1872, and the first hospital opened up in Shreveport in 1922, 50 years later.

I am tired of these Shrine apologetics , either the Shrine is for Master Masons in good standing or it is not and should break ties with Masonry and allow anyone and everyone in . I am not Shrine bashing , I would raise just as much hell if it was the YR , SR , OES etc; etc; , if you are open to Master Masons in good standing only , then these Master Masons should be in good standing , it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out . (leaving Arkansas out of the mix) The term is not "elastic" , it means in GOOD FREAKING STANDING , if a man has not paid his dues and does not have a paid up , up-to-date dues card then he IS NOT in good standing . If he has been expelled , then he IS NOT in good standing .

--This is where the Arkansas situation comes in. A man was expelled from Arkansas Masonry, I believe improperly. The trial was a sham. The individual held dual membership with an Iowa lodge. The GL of Iowa decided not to recognize the Arkansas expulsion. Is the man a Master Mason in "good standing"? The Iowa GL says that he is. The Imperial Potentate of the Shrine says that he is. I have not yet made up my mind on this man, and I really have no opinion. What do you think about the Arkansas situation? Is the expulsion proper and in conformance with the regulations of the GL of Arkansas? Should Iowa recognize the expulsion, and also expel him from Iowa Masonry?

Do you Charles think it is fine for the Shrine to keep suspended Masons (some of whom who have been suspended for more than a few years in my local Shrine Temple and couple who were expelled for ...... never mind ) in good standing in the Shrine ? I believe I have read it myself on some forum where you have said that you would not be a member if they broke ties and allowed non-Masons in as members , well they are doing that very thing now ! A man suspended or expelled from Craft Masonry IS NOT a Mason .
--I do not believe it is correct and proper for the Shrine to keep men on its rolls who are not Master Masons in good standing. Men who have been legitimately expelled, or demitted (from Craft Masonry), should be shown the door. Since I am currently demitted from the Shrine, I plan to wait and see how this situation "shakes out". You are quite correct, that I have stated that I will not participate in the Shrine, if the Imperial Shrine breaks entirely from Masonry, and permits anyone to join. Then it will cease to be the Shrine (at least the Shrine that I joined in 1989).
 

jaya

Active Member
Simple question......Who is the Grand Lodge? It is not just the officer line of the Grand Lodge. It is, at least in my jurisdiction, made up of many more than that. It includes the Master and Wardens of each lodge in the state, the DDGLs, DDGMs, past elected Grand Line officers, and members of required committees. It is made up of over 1000 voting members. When we complain about a Grand Lodge, we are complaining about many of us.
 

goomba

Active Member
If it was just one grand lodge and the Shrine I could say maybe it's the grand lodge. But many grand lodges have had this issue, so in my mind it has to be the Shrine.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
But many grand lodges have had this issue, so in my mind it has to be the Shrine.

These are the rumblings I am hearing . I do not know if the Shrine is jockeying for independence , I do not know if the Shrine is flexing it's muscles or the Shrine just thinks it is above Ancient Craft Masonry . I do not know , but I hate what is going to happen to a few brethren I know who sit on the board of the Hospitals and actually care about them . It will break their hearts , but I highly doubt they will leave Masonry nor do I think they will leave the Shrine because they are in it for the right reasons , to help the kids .
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
Brethren , I am not going to say where I heard this or from whom BUT I have it on good authority the other Grand Lodges may be following in SC's footsteps . So do not be surprised when various Grand Lodge's start issuing edicts forbidding the brethren from being Shriners .
 

jaya

Active Member
The more that I learn about the shrine, the less I am interested in joining. That is sad. I support the work that they do with the hospital but do not like some of the other aspects. A friend of mine posted some pictures taken at a shrine function that had alcohol in it. He was asked to either remove the pictures or not post the ones with alcohol. He photoshopped milk glasses and cartons over them. They seem to want to do one thing but portray a different image.
 
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