The Building Series: Building Better Builders

CoachN

Builder Builder
Hi Brothers,

Brother Jason thought it would be a good idea to have a section where we can discuss "Building Better Builders." Would you like to start with what interests you most or something else?

Let me know when you can,

Coach N
 
Well.... since this would be a building better builders discussion....lets start off with the foundation. Without a good solid foundation, it doesnt matter how well you attempt to build the rest of the building, it wont be on solid ground. Do or should we have a good spiritual/religious education or is belief and faith ok??.... What about educational level..... does a man with higher educational levels have a better foundation than the man with a limited education ( education meaning schooling...not lifes education).....Just what is the best material to use for building our foundations......
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Matthew 7:24-27
New International Version (NIV)
The Wise and Foolish Builders

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Many proponents argue that Muhammad's (peace e upon him) life can be divided into two phases. The first phase deals with Muhammad "the messenger of Allah" and the next phase is Muhammad (peace be upon him), a common person. His actions and statements need to be followed, as messengers are followed, but his actions and statements as human beings are not to be followed. Many people disagree to this school of thought.

“When the Holy One, blessed is He, created His world, He created it like an infant born from its mother. For a fetus born from the mother, begins from its navel and expands outward to all four directions so too, the Holy One, blessed is He, began to create the world from the Foundation Stone and from that, the entire world was established.” - Midrash Tanchuma – Pikudei #3
 

Winter

I've been here before
Fireman, I would answer absolutely yes. A Brother who has attended a post-secondary university or place of higher learning has a better foundation of learning. Not merely by virtue of having attended such a place, but if they have learned what they were they supposed to then they have tools and advantages that the average Brother most likely does not have access to.

The college graduate knows how to approach learning, even if it appears daunting and unlearnable at the time. A method can be applied to the distillation of a large body of knowledge in an attempt to glean useful information.

In essence, it is not that the Brother with a higher education knows more, but rather that they have more experience than others at processing information in a way as to get the most out of it.
 

Winter

I've been here before
<snip> “When the Holy One, blessed is He, created His world, He created it like an infant born from its mother. For a fetus born from the mother, begins from its navel and expands outward to all four directions so too, the Holy One, blessed is He, began to create the world from the Foundation Stone and from that, the entire world was established.” - Midrash Tanchuma – Pikudei #3
I think your quotes from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism were aiming to show the importance of education. Am I right?

I can only comment on the Jewish one, but that midrash is pretty interesting. It explains things like why we have that little indent on our upper lip! :)

It has to do with when we are in the womb and the Angel Lailah teaches us the whole Torah and lights a light so that the unborn infant can see the whole world and know the whole path of their life. And just as we are being born, Lailah touches our lip (causing the indent) and makes us forget everything.

The implication is that we already know everything, we just need to remember it. It's very similar to the Jungian collective consciousness.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
I think your quotes from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism were aiming to show the importance of education. Am I right?

I can only comment on the Jewish one, but that midrash is pretty interesting. It explains things like why we have that little indent on our upper lip! :)

It has to do with when we are in the womb and the Angle Lailah teaches us the whole Torah and lights a light so that the unborn infant can see the whole world and know the whole path of their life. And just as we are being born, Lailah touches our lip (causing the indent) and makes us forget everything.

The implication is that we already know everything, we just need to remember it. It's very similar to the Jungian collective consciousness.
I was illustrating the various ways that a few of the world's religions talk to foundations, education being key.

Experience remembered is an excellent educator as well.
Wisdom is best when it is from varied sources, wisdom gathered from a singular source tends to have a myopic view of things.
 
Winter....which do you consider the better material for the foundation....spiritual/religious or education......which makes for a better foundation for our buildings...
 

Winter

I've been here before
Winter....which do you consider the better material for the foundation....spiritual/religious or education......which makes for a better foundation for our buildings...
I believe an amalgamation, such as I have had, of both a religious and secular education when done correctly will compliment each other for a stronger foundation.

Faith and science can coexist as evidenced by the statement made by Maimonides in the middle ages that said if science and Torah are misaligned, then either we do not fully understand the science yet, or we have misinterpreted the Torah. If science proves a fact, we should accept it as fact, and reinterpret the Torah accordingly.

So one can be a scholar as well as having a good religious foundation that allows a person to see things from many perspectives without believing that the devil put dinosaur bones in the earth. :D

When a person blindly ignores worldly knowledge because it either contradicts or does not fit with religious teachings then no true learning can take place.
 

BukeyeJackson

ViMH Advisory Board
I believe an amalgamation, such as I have had, of both a religious and secular education when done correctly will compliment each other for a stronger foundation.

Faith and science can coexist as evidenced by the statement made by Maimonides in the middle ages that said if science and Torah are misaligned, then either we do not fully understand the science yet, or we have misinterpreted the Torah. If science proves a fact, we should accept it as fact, and reinterpret the Torah accordingly.

So one can be a scholar as well as having a good religious foundation that allows a person to see things from many perspectives without believing that the devil put dinosaur bones in the earth. :D

When a person blindly ignores worldly knowledge because it either contradicts or does not fit with religious teachings then no true learning can take place.
That is one of the truest statements on the interweb!

Truth in learning is the hard thing to come by until you reach for higher education.
 
Winter..... I agree but just for the sake of discussion, if you had to pick one or the other..... which do you feel makes the better foundation. Me, I will say that it is the religious/spiritual because to me I feel the basis of what the lessons in masonry teach are rooted more in the religious/spiritual aspect than in education, not to discount education at all.
 

Winter

I've been here before
As I said, I do not believe one to be the better foundation of knowledge over the other. Focusing on one to the exclusion of the other, or even an imbalance of the two, will most likely provide a skewed perception of the knowledge attained.
 
Well... I do believe you make good points, I still stand by the religious/spiritual as the better starting point for the foundation and I say this because now where in the degrees does it ever ask about your educational level...... but you are required to make a verbal affirmation in the religious/spiritual realm. With that said, without knowledge ( I should have said this instead of education) the foundation will not develop into a better building.
 

Winter

I've been here before
But look at it this way. A religious education, with a few exceptions, requires you to believe or have faith, without proof. There is no focus in a religious education that teaches a person how to learn, or how to study.

Whereas an education gained at a university or place of higher learning will, or should, include courses that teach a person how to approach the acquisition and processing of knowledge. Not just random memorization of facts, but actual learning in manner that can be applied to any type of study.

We could debate whether religious or secular studies are a better foundation for a Mason. But I don't believe that a focus on one or the other is conclusive. If it is a religious education, then who's religion? Or all of them? If it is a secular foundation, will an analytical or scientific base make it more difficult to have faith in the divine?
 

CoachN

Builder Builder
If all learning were Spiritually based and focused, then we would have education that would teach everyone who actively and earnestly engaged in it:

1) How to take in only those things that nurtured
2) How to let go of all things that no longer nurtured.

What a wonderful way to be supported.

F&S,

Coach N
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Education should be balanced and contain 7 the classic disciples of the Mason. Religion/spirituality is a parallel column equally important, needed, valued.

So what is the third leg of this Masonic stool?
 
But look at it this way. A religious education, with a few exceptions, requires you to believe or have faith, without proof. There is no focus in a religious education that teaches a person how to learn, or how to study.

Whereas an education gained at a university or place of higher learning will, or should, include courses that teach a person how to approach the acquisition and processing of knowledge. Not just random memorization of facts, but actual learning in manner that can be applied to any type of study.

We could debate whether religious or secular studies are a better foundation for a Mason. But I don't believe that a focus on one or the other is conclusive. If it is a religious education, then who's religion? Or all of them? If it is a secular foundation, will an analytical or scientific base make it more difficult to have faith in the divine?
Brother.... I do not mean religious education...I mean ones faith how ever they choose to understand it. I feel that the spiritual/religious is the base layer to becoming a Mason and there for the best foundation in which we should build our buildings..... I do believe all regular masons worldwide require a belief in deity ( the name one uses is not of importance).... but in no landmark do I find ones educational level to be a issue. In none of my degrees was I ever asked do I put any faith or trust into my place of higher education. I do believe education is very important but I value knowledge leaps and bounds over education..... one does not always gain knowledge with a passing grade in a class......
 

CoachN

Builder Builder
There is a significant difference between "spiritual" and "religious." Thinking and acting like they are the same will bring you much woe.
 
There is a significant difference between "spiritual" and "religious." Thinking and acting like they are the same will bring you much woe.
True but either one is to me the basis for a good foundation for our buildings that is why I typed it spiritual/religious because they may or may not be the same to different people, some may consider themselves spiritual without being religious and some may consider them to go hand in hand.... remember all of us who are considered "regular" are required to verbally express a belief in a single deity and I challenge anyone to show proof that ones educational level has any bearing on their ability to be a mason. So having a religious/spiritual belief is the basis for our foundations....... there are many other items that help build a good solid building but if we dont have a belief in a deity, then we will never become a mason......
 
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