Arguments against recognizing PHA Masonry-FREEBORN

[Ashlar2006]

Curious....For those jurisdictions that do not recognize PHA, would they use the same justification for denying the petition of an African American man to a "regular" or "recognized" lodge?

No , because many of these jurisdictions already have black men as members . There may not be that many but they are there .

And I would like to say that this is the first time I have ever heard someone using "Freeborn" as an argument AGAINST recognizing PHA . The only two arguments I have ever heard is "they do not want it" or "They never asked" .


This does not relate to any of the posts so far but a reminder ....

This will not turn into a Southern Jurisdiction bashing thread . I will no longer put up with Masons in the South being painted as racists by one broad brush .

 

[mdonahue66]

I've not heard that argument prior to this thread either, although it's not a discussion I've ever engaged in outside the internet. As we recognize PHA here, it's really not an issue that I've ever heard anyone talk about...

 

[486]

Curious....For those jurisdictions that do not recognize PHA, would they use the same justification for denying the petition of an African American man to a "regular" or "recognized" lodge?

Some would, and have. Recently. See GA.

Edit: I just read Ashlar's note about bashing the south (didn't see that when I replied), but just to be clear: I'm not south bashing, I just happen to be in the south and that's where my Masonic experience lies.

 

[Treadstone]

I would add that times have changed. Society and the society norm has also changed in many ways. And some of us would agree that is has become more negative and less of a environment we'd like to see our young ones grow up in. But also as times do change positive things come about as well. Slavery is something we wish would be of a distant past. But in other countries ( China ) its alive in and well. Slavery dis-qualified you for being owned. Not being black , green , purple , whatever race. As far as Freemasonry is concerned I think we should stick with the traditions that we have always upheld.

 

[Cemore]

masonic exclusive territorial jurisdiction....... I believe this is more of an issue than any thing else.....

I have to agree with you on this, it can be somewhat comfusing with two GL in one jurisdictions.

 

[Bob Franks]

Originally Posted by fireman99 View Post
masonic exclusive territorial jurisdiction....... I believe this is more of an issue than any thing else.....

I have to agree with you on this, it can be somewhat comfusing with two GL in one jurisdictions.

I'll be opening this as a discussion this weekend.

S&F

 

[Sa-Ra merriamen]

1. Freeborn
This argument says that since Black men are descended from slaves, they cannot fulfill the requirement that a petitioner be 'freeborn.'

Please press "Post Reply" to respond to this argument.


S&F

Im new to masonry...prior to joining i was unsure which lodge i should apply to, I being of an african herritage...for mysef race was a factor,considering i did not wish to waste an opportunity based on potential racial bias...however to my delight i was reassured that my aprehensions were unfounded, but much understood based on past events & present ideas carried by some. What I was told by the brothers was that what counted most ...was my character and other qualifications...yet one thing has still left me confused regarding this topic?... Ive noticed many similarites between ancient egypt and freemasonry...thus far being only a newbe & still learning...& if im correct... how could race matter or be even a point of exclusion when the ancient egyptian factor is included...just found it kinda odd...

 

[BG_TRBL]

Im new to masonry...prior to joining i was unsure which lodge i should apply to, I being of an african herritage...for mysef race was a factor,considering i did not wish to waste an opportunity based on potential racial bias...however to my delight i was reassured that my aprehensions were unfounded, but much understood based on past events & present ideas carried by some. What I was told by the brothers was that what counted most ...was my character and other qualifications...yet one thing has still left me confused regarding this topic?... Ive noticed many similarites between ancient egypt and freemasonry...thus far being only a newbe & still learning...& if im correct... how could race matter or be even a point of exclusion when the ancient egyptian factor is included...just found it kinda odd...

First off, hello and welcome to the forums, I hope you enjoy your stay with us.

Secondly, as you are new to the forums, please allow me to say this, this particular thread was in a series of "questions/statements" put out for discussion purposes only. These aren't for the purpose of segregation of members.

Thirdly, I do agree that there are many similarities, references in freemasonry to Egypt. The comment in this thread is specific to the United States, and addresses the issue of African-Americans being used as slaves in the early years of the country. They would not be considered "free-born" as specified in your petition for membership. Now if you consider this as being true, at what point does this become a non-issue? As through tracings of history, if someone is a decendent of a slave, are they truly "free-born".
It is not the outward appearance that freemasons regard......

 

[Winter]

1. Freeborn
This argument says that since Black men are descended from slaves, they cannot fulfill the requirement that a petitioner be 'freeborn.'

Please press "Post Reply" to respond to this argument.


S&F

I'm going to just go ahead and speak my mind on this one.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard in my life. If some jurisdictions can claim this then I can claim that they are doing so as a means to cloak other motives.

I'm a Jew. This law also applies to me.

What part of "freeborn" is so hard to understand? If a man is born into this life a free man, then he passes that test!

Jackassery, plain and simple.

The concurrent jurisdiction argument is a load of malarkey as well.

There. I feel better!

[edit] I was posting before I was fully awake and thought this was a new thread that was just started today! LOL I was furious, thinking, haven't we already hashed this one out! Hahaha That's what I get for reading posts before coffee!]

 

[Ironhawg]

I am a brand new Mason (less than a year.) I am in a jurisdiction that does not recognize PHA. I do not agree with it. As for the free born argument, I have been doing some research into my genealogy. I am not certain, but I believe that my ancestors came to this country as an indentured servant. If we are to exclude African Americans from recognition as Masons because they are descended from slaves, then I believe I would be subject to exclusion as well. Brotherhood is why I petitioned the lodge. Brotherhood is why this division needs to become a thing of the past, at least that is my humble opinion.

 

[Duncan1574]

I'm going to just go ahead and speak my mind on this one.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard in my life. If some jurisdictions can claim this then I can claim that they are doing so as a means to cloak other motives.

I'm a Jew. This law also applies to me.

What part of "freeborn" is so hard to understand? If a man is born into this life a free man, then he passes that test!

Jackassery, plain and simple.

The concurrent jurisdiction argument is a load of malarkey as well.

There. I feel better!

[edit] I was posting before I was fully awake and thought this was a new thread that was just started today! LOL I was furious, thinking, haven't we already hashed this one out! Hahaha That's what I get for reading posts before coffee!]

So mote it BE! (amen!) Just more BS,

 

[Ashlar2006]

As I said when this thread was first started , the GL of Ky removed "Freeborn" from our rituals several years ago . And my lodge knows that , as Master , I will not put up with anyone using that term because some of the old heads still like to use it .

 

[johnj1582]

food for thought, but aren't all men born free? perhaps not born into a free society, or a free household, but, as Socrates said in Plato's Apology: "Anytus and Meletus may indeed kill me, but they cannot harm me."

 

[Duncan1574]

As I said when this thread was first started , the GL of Ky removed "Freeborn" from our rituals several years ago . And my lodge knows that , as Master , I will not put up with anyone using that term because some of the old heads still like to use it .

Wisconsin still has 'freeborn' in our rituals and on the petition form.

 

[Sa-Ra merriamen]

Hi

ok...trying to learn tools...

 

[BukeyeJackson]

Why is this a copy of BG's post????

 

[Sa-Ra merriamen]

First off, hello and welcome to the forums, I hope you enjoy your stay with us.

Secondly, as you are new to the forums, please allow me to say this, this particular thread was in a series of "questions/statements" put out for discussion purposes only. These aren't for the purpose of segregation of members.

Thirdly, I do agree that there are many similarities, references in freemasonry to Egypt. The comment in this thread is specific to the United States, and addresses the issue of African-Americans being used as slaves in the early years of the country. They would not be considered "free-born" as specified in your petition for membership. Now if you consider this as being true, at what point does this become a non-issue? As through tracings of history, if someone is a decendent of a slave, are they truly "free-born".
It is not the outward appearance that freemasons regard......

Thank you for welcoming me

I apologize if my initial response indicated that segregation was the aim of the ideas and topics expressed in the forum…In fact I have found the opinions, ideas and information presented thus far honest, enlightening & quite comforting. It is encouraging to read post that work to create unity and brotherly love…issues and disagreements will always exist, it is my humble opinion that only those who truly wish to have peace and harmony… will work towards this unity regardless of how unpopular or painful it may be…

It’s amazing; this topic has pressed me to address ideas, feelings, and concepts that I had not anticipated in contemplating… I sincerely believe this is a complex issue that must be viewed from a variety of perspectives because it peers into the very heart of man. The position that another “man” can create or even would attempt to create a complete slave is profound… The very attempt is arrogant and is a fool’s errand… The audacity of men to even challenge the blueprint of our Great Architect, who has created all things in its own manner is unfathomable...who can alter a being’s true design?…when considering those in history who have held this belief … reminds me of those described in scripture;

“Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. 15Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. 16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief ; and their sleep is taken away , unless they cause some to fall . 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfectday.19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble ”.

On one hand you have those who oppressed and the other those subjected to the oppression. Two additional proverbs, I hope will further express the term slave when applied to the African American; I use them not to validate any particular religion, rather in effort to support my opinion…” Know the world in yourself, Never look for your-self in the world, for this would be to project your illusion”… or “Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.”
I quote these teachings not in jest,…I truly believe that the label “slave” or the concept “born a slave”…applies to those who knowingly or unknowingly allow themselves to be defined or redefined by the oppressor…One may call another human a slave…however that alone does not automatically make one a slave in reality…it may possibly be factual in the physical sense, but man has never been solely defined by the physical alone…he has always been defined by much more, which has always separated him from other creatures…No one with commonsense would apply this concrete definition to a captured lion; who during his captivity, is forced to perform tricks in a circus…even his cubs /descendants… will retain their natural instincts that no man can eliminate…his willingness to capitulate his natural state is an instinct of survival…this is not trickery on his part, rather a natural design by his creator …As far as masonry is concerned…and the slave subject…in addressing this discussion I contemplate if a slaver or oppressor could be a F&AM...having this evil within his heart… it would seem he disqualified himself from the very beginning if he truly believes that he would one day be judged for his actions… PHM if they believe that they are slaves mentally and spiritually… can not be masons...because freeborn in the truest sense, is internal and not based on physical or linguistic terminology…I am proud to be a F&AM…I recognize that I must build daily…we are all creations headed to the same destination. For myself I am excited to find that at its essence F&AM are those who TRULY wish to be brothers, establish peace and uphold justice irrespective of outer manifestations…

“If the Master teaches what is error, the disciple's submission is slavery; if he teaches truth, this submission is ennoblement.”

 

[Gary]

I'm going to just go ahead and speak my mind on this one.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard in my life. If some jurisdictions can claim this then I can claim that they are doing so as a means to cloak other motives.

I'm a Jew. This law also applies to me.

What part of "freeborn" is so hard to understand? If a man is born into this life a free man, then he passes that test!

Jackassery, plain and simple.

The concurrent jurisdiction argument is a load of malarkey as well.

There. I feel better!

[edit] I was posting before I was fully awake and thought this was a new thread that was just started today! LOL I was furious, thinking, haven't we already hashed this one out! Hahaha That's what I get for reading posts before coffee!]

A landmark of this forum is: ALWAYS have your coffee (or other energizing beverage) before you post. Sometimes even that doesn't help me though...LOL

 

[Sa-Ra merriamen]

Sorry trying to navigate...

 

[Bob Franks]

Upcoming meeting

As I visit lodges in my district, I announce the upcoming meeting at one of the lodges when the local Prince Hall Affiliate Masons are specifically invited. It usually passes without comment, and isn't even mentioned in the minutes.
After my own lodge meeting last night, one of the members stopped in the hallway to the dining room and asked,

"What Prince Hall Masons are invited?"
"Uh, the ones here in Goldsboro."
"It's going to be a lodge meeting?"
"Yes, Pete [name altered], they're now recognized."
"They're going to open the lodge?"
"Yes, Pete, they're now recognized."
"They're going to do all that stuff in front of them?"
"Yes, Pete, they're now recognized."
"They're going to do all the secret stuff?"
"Yes, Pete, they're now recognized."

[Shakes head, walks away]

S&F