Can a Brother who has had gender reassignment continue in the Fraternity?

[PatrickWilliams]

Ashlar said this should have its own thread, so here we go:

[True story alert!] In an unnamed jurisdiction to which I belong, in an unnamed Lodge (to which I do not belong and never have belonged) an unusual circumstance occurred. A long-term and respected member (who had held ALL the offices) announced that he was resigning from the fraternity because he had chosen to have gender reassignment surgery. He didn't want the frat to go through all the painful discussion about his membership. [end true story alert]

But what if he had decided NOT to resign? Could he remain a Mason? Our work says that no man may be MADE a Mason, but he was most certainly male when he joined (married, with children). After the surgery, he would still be technically male (surgery still can't remove that Y chromosome) even though he might be missing a part or two and be in possession of some other parts.

So ... what's your response? He wasn't a woman when he was made a Mason ... can he still be one after gender reassignment?

 

[Winter]

I know I've got a 10 foot pole around here somewhere...

 

[Windrider]

My impression is that those who go through male to female gender reasignment would embrace the resulting changes whole heartedly and would disqualify themselves from being Masons. If they are convinced that they are women trapped in men's bodies, then they could not be Masons as they would not be men. So I think the person involved made the only correct choice.

Now comes the other side of the coin. Would a female to male transgender person be blackballed on that basis alone?

 

[486]

Wouldn't the brother have had mental reservations about taking the obligation, knowing that (in his heart) he was not a man, free-born and all that?

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Now comes the other side of the coin. Would a female to male transgender person be blackballed on that basis alone?

Well ... that's not really the other side of the coin. In this example, we already have a Mason, well-known, well-respected, etc. who opts later in life for gender reassignment.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Wouldn't the brother have had mental reservations about taking the obligation, knowing that (in his heart) he was not a man, free-born and all that?

I don't know - when did the Brother in question come to the determination that he was a woman trapped in a man's body? I have no idea.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I know I've got a 10 foot pole around here somewhere...

Is that a Polish joke?

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Wouldn't the brother have had mental reservations about taking the obligation, knowing that (in his heart) he was not a man, free-born and all that?

Once again, I do not know. When did the brother decide that he was a woman trapped in a man's body? I have no idea. Anyhow, that isn't the question (even though it possibly should be). Here we have a Mason, who has been a Mason for a long time, who decides to have gender reassignment. We have no idea of how long he's had those feelings. Heck, he may not even be aware of how long he's had those feelings. The question is: does his gender reassignment disqualify him from Freemasonry, and if so, why?

 

[Brother Liberty]

My guess is that the person would opt to leave the fraternity to live life completely as a woman. Knowing someone who has had the surgeries, they do not have one foot in one gender and then the other foot in the other. They went all in.

 

[Gary]

OK, I'll answer your question with a question... Say a woman has gender reassignment....She knows in her heart that she was always meant to be a man.

Is (s)he in-eligible to join the craft? I mean after, all...the person is now the appropriate gender...

Honestly, i must have missed the original dialogue that led to this discussion, but

I'm with Winter on this one... I just found my 10 foot pole.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

My impression is that those who go through male to female gender reasignment would embrace the resulting changes whole heartedly and would disqualify themselves from being Masons.

I agree. And, indeed that's what happened. But what if that had not been their choice?

So I think the person involved made the only correct choice.

Granted. I think so, too. But what would we do with the individual who did not make that decision, who wanted to remain as a Mason even after gender reassignment? Believe me, there were plenty of jokes going around about how this brother was really after the WM position in Star.

If they are convinced that they are women trapped in men's bodies, then they could not be Masons as they would not be men.

Really? So you argue that a Mason must be a man 'in their heart'. They still have Y chromosomes. If pre-operative, they still have all the requisite parts (and maybe a few extra ones, too!). And what about the woman who undergoes gender reassignment because she's a man in her heart? Would she be eligible post-operatively?

 

[486]

Opinion only, no basis in by-laws.

Man to woman: you have to leave the Craft. You can join Eastern Star, if you haven't already. I seriously mean the mental reservation part, because you have to go through a LOT of counseling to get to the point where trans-gender surgery is allowed. The VAST majority of people under-going this operation have known most of their lives (yeah, I know trans-gendered people too - interesting neighborhood I live in, eh?).

Woman to man: Personally? Welcome aboard. I truly think my daughter is a Mason in her heart, her disqualification is not being male. Clearly I'm at least a social liberal, so I wouldn't have an issue with it.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "I can have an opinion because it's not me."

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Opinion only, no basis in by-laws.

Man to woman: you have to leave the Craft. You can join Eastern Star, if you haven't already. I seriously mean the mental reservation part, because you have to go through a LOT of counseling to get to the point where trans-gender surgery is allowed. The VAST majority of people under-going this operation have known most of their lives (yeah, I know trans-gendered people too - interesting neighborhood I live in, eh?).

Woman to man: Personally? Welcome aboard. I truly think my daughter is a Mason in her heart, her disqualification is not being male. Clearly I'm at least a social liberal, so I wouldn't have an issue with it.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "I can have an opinion because it's not me."

Thanks for the opinion! I think that I may even agree with you. Oh, yeah ... there's always co-masonry, too.

 

[removed12612]

What about if the Brother just likes to dress as a woman..... in public?

 

[Ashlar2006]

I know I've got a 10 foot pole around here somewhere...

LOL , I have it . After much thought and after posting opposing views to the homosexual thread , I am setting this one out .

 

[removed12612]

We can go round and round on topics like this...you just need to change the subject of the post....can a person be a mason if........??????????/

 

[chodapp]

This situation over the last three years resulted in France's largest Masonic obedience, the Grand Orient of France (deemed irregular and unrecognized by UGLE and North American GLs) voting in September to allow women to join. It seems a brother "became" a woman, and the annual communication voted 51% in favor of opening their lodges to women as a result. He/she was just installed as Master of her lodge last week.

GOF has 50,000 members. Decision to admit women is voluntary among lodges. There has been female Masonry in France since at least the 1750s (OES does not exist there). GOF is the classic situation of being so open minded they won't take their own side in an argument. They are very politically active as an official group, and do not require belief in a supreme being.

Large can of worms now officially opened with that ten foot pole. The real question is whether mass resignations will now occur as men flee to the other two male-only GLs in the country.

 

[Ashlar2006]

Thanks Bro. Chris , I was reading of the GOF admitting women now , but did not know about the sex change . I too am curious to how many leave for the Male only lodges .

 

[Windrider]

...
Really? So you argue that a Mason must be a man 'in their heart'. They still have Y chromosomes. If pre-operative, they still have all the requisite parts (and maybe a few extra ones, too!). And what about the woman who undergoes gender reassignment because she's a man in her heart? Would she be eligible post-operatively?

That was what I asked in the last line of the post you quoted.

<the following is my personal opinion>

I believe we are what we are in our hearts. If a person born male is a woman in her heart, she is a woman. The same is true, to me, for a woman who, in her heart is a man. The level of commitment, expense and trial that a trans-gender person must go through in order to have the surgery in this country is enormous. Many psychological and medical professionals must be convinced that the person is making the right decision. This is not like getting a tattoo

We are Masons in our hearts. That's what counts.

<personal opinion ends here>

 

[Ashlar2006]

We can go round and round on topics like this...you just need to change the subject of the post....can a person be a mason if........??????????/

Very true Fireman , but as long as we can discuss these topics as gentlemen , then no harm in it .I have seen these topics degrade to bickering on other forums , but I believe everyone is handling them quite well here .