PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
So ... what would you do, Worshipful Master?
PHA and your GL
- Thread starter rustybones49801
- Start date
removed12612
Guest
???.....still thinking. I know that if it did happen, and I was WM, I wouldnt have this long to think.
I know here the person objecting has to explain to the WM why he is objecting.....then as the WM you make your decision. IF I were the WM, I believe I would explain to him the situation and tell him that if he wishes to set in Lodge, he will need to make that decision on his own. I would not tell him to leave but I would inform him of the guests and that I would not risk causing any problems locally just for him.
I know here the person objecting has to explain to the WM why he is objecting.....then as the WM you make your decision. IF I were the WM, I believe I would explain to him the situation and tell him that if he wishes to set in Lodge, he will need to make that decision on his own. I would not tell him to leave but I would inform him of the guests and that I would not risk causing any problems locally just for him.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
First a question . I know some jurisdictions that PHA Brothers can not just "show up" , but must go through proper channels prior to visitation ? So does your GL require that brothers from PHA have prior authorization first before they show up to your lodge ?
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Yes. In Alaska, it's not really 'prior authorization', but you do have to inform the Master of the Lodge that you want to visit and wait to receive his okay. I believe it's much the same here in Wisconsin. On the other hand ... we've (in Alaska) had PHA brothers just show up. We do not refuse them just because a step was skipped.
BROTHER WINTER STATES,
Read all the posts. It depends what jurisdiction you are in as to whether they are considered regular. While some may see it as a race issue, it is far more complicated than that and you can't just make a blanket statement that they are irregular since that is clearly not the case.
I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD AND IT SEEMS THAT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN DEEMED REGULAR IT HAS BEEN DONE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE HISTORY OF THEM BEING DEEMED IRREGULAR. SEEMS TO BE A POLITICAL MOVE BY UGLE?
The UGLE says they're regular and my jurisdiction, and many others, say they are regular. And I would not make a blanket statement that any jurisdiction that does not accept PHA is racist.
I AM SAYING THAT SOME JURISDICTIONS FEAR BEING CALLED RACIST THEREFORE ACCEPT THEM AS REGULAR.
And, if I remember correctly, the Grand Lodge of Texas (looks like where you are) has recognized the PHA of Texas as regular. With the caveat that no Masonic communication can take place.
IF NO MASONIC COMMUNICATION CAN TAKE PLACE ACCEPTANCE IS JUST SYMBOLIC, NO?
SORRY FOR ALL CAPS, BROTHER WINTER. I'M NOT YELLING, JUST DIFFERENTIATING OUR TEXT. I MAY STILL BE INCORRECT IN MY INTERPRETATION BUT I'M AGAINST ACCEPTANCE OF PHA AS IT STANDS.
Read all the posts. It depends what jurisdiction you are in as to whether they are considered regular. While some may see it as a race issue, it is far more complicated than that and you can't just make a blanket statement that they are irregular since that is clearly not the case.
I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD AND IT SEEMS THAT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN DEEMED REGULAR IT HAS BEEN DONE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE HISTORY OF THEM BEING DEEMED IRREGULAR. SEEMS TO BE A POLITICAL MOVE BY UGLE?
The UGLE says they're regular and my jurisdiction, and many others, say they are regular. And I would not make a blanket statement that any jurisdiction that does not accept PHA is racist.
I AM SAYING THAT SOME JURISDICTIONS FEAR BEING CALLED RACIST THEREFORE ACCEPT THEM AS REGULAR.
And, if I remember correctly, the Grand Lodge of Texas (looks like where you are) has recognized the PHA of Texas as regular. With the caveat that no Masonic communication can take place.
IF NO MASONIC COMMUNICATION CAN TAKE PLACE ACCEPTANCE IS JUST SYMBOLIC, NO?
SORRY FOR ALL CAPS, BROTHER WINTER. I'M NOT YELLING, JUST DIFFERENTIATING OUR TEXT. I MAY STILL BE INCORRECT IN MY INTERPRETATION BUT I'M AGAINST ACCEPTANCE OF PHA AS IT STANDS.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
Okay , IF the delegation of PHA Brethren had informed us prior to the meeting , and the lodge was expecting them as planned and seeing how they were expecting to be welcomed into said lodge and seeing how both the "MS" GL of WI and PHAGL of WI have mutual recognition then I would explain to Brother Dixie (Is this a Southern thing?) that they had prior authorization to be there and would ask the lone Brother from the GL of Al , as kindly and graciously as possible , that he would have to leave if he could not set in lodge with recognized Brethren from your jurisdiction . This is his Grand Lodge's problem , not yours . A brother who could not set in lodge with PHA Masons SHOULD understand this and leave without comment .
This is what I would do , am I in the right ? Maybe , maybe not , but we told the PHA Brethren they would be welcomed into my lodge and I would stand by my word .
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
We have a winnah!
Winter
I've been here before
Not trying to jump on you Brother! LOL
If you read the entirety of the UGLE statement on the matter, they clearly state that despite the somewhat irregularity of their founding, that they are regular. The UGLE is one of the most strict bodies in Masonry when it comes to recognition and if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
Second, I challenge you to show me proof that jurisdictions that have recognized PHA have done so out of fear of being labeled as racists and not out of a sense of Brotherly love for our fellow Masons.
On a side note, an easier way to differentiate text here when quoting another poster is to use the "quote" feature. Let us know if you need a quick tutorial, Brother.
First, it did appear, to me, that you were making a blanket statement that all PHA are irregular. My apologies if this is not the case. This is obviously not the case or I wouldn't sit in Lodge with them.
If you read the entirety of the UGLE statement on the matter, they clearly state that despite the somewhat irregularity of their founding, that they are regular. The UGLE is one of the most strict bodies in Masonry when it comes to recognition and if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.Second, I challenge you to show me proof that jurisdictions that have recognized PHA have done so out of fear of being labeled as racists and not out of a sense of Brotherly love for our fellow Masons.
On a side note, an easier way to differentiate text here when quoting another poster is to use the "quote" feature. Let us know if you need a quick tutorial, Brother.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
PHA visitation
Golly, I LOVE it when people start making interesting scenarios to test how we really feel!
[Sorry, but I'm technologically retarded, so I can't easily quote multiple posts]
If a brother (of ANY GL) was visiting and another visitor insisted he couldn't visit, I would remind him that in GLAF&AM of NC, only a member can make an objection(, and then if it would be a member objecting the master must "regard" the objection. It does NOT say the objecting member can veto a visit).
In either case, if I were WM and felt the objection was not justified on any basis, I would tell the OBJECTING brother we would miss him at that meeting!
"Texas said they did not grant visitation because PHA did not request it. PHA, apparently, requested recognition only."
How can you have recognition without visitation?? That is madness and violates the Ancient Landmark: 'It is the Right of a Mason to visit a lodge.'
"So does your GL require that brothers from PHA have prior authorization first before they show up to your lodge ?"
Hmmm, sounds like a double standard to me. Do we require this from Brothers visiting from San Marino (we just recognised them), Ontario, or South Carolina?
"From what I can tell in this thread (which is my sole source of knowledge on the subject), PHA is an irregular organization."
Irregular just means that your GL is not in amity with them.
Apparently, OH & WV consider each other irregular right now!
I like my Masonry just like my whiskey. Undiluted!
I just want to be a Mason.
S&F
Golly, I LOVE it when people start making interesting scenarios to test how we really feel!
[Sorry, but I'm technologically retarded, so I can't easily quote multiple posts]
If a brother (of ANY GL) was visiting and another visitor insisted he couldn't visit, I would remind him that in GLAF&AM of NC, only a member can make an objection(, and then if it would be a member objecting the master must "regard" the objection. It does NOT say the objecting member can veto a visit).
In either case, if I were WM and felt the objection was not justified on any basis, I would tell the OBJECTING brother we would miss him at that meeting!
"Texas said they did not grant visitation because PHA did not request it. PHA, apparently, requested recognition only."
How can you have recognition without visitation?? That is madness and violates the Ancient Landmark: 'It is the Right of a Mason to visit a lodge.'
"So does your GL require that brothers from PHA have prior authorization first before they show up to your lodge ?"
Hmmm, sounds like a double standard to me. Do we require this from Brothers visiting from San Marino (we just recognised them), Ontario, or South Carolina?
"From what I can tell in this thread (which is my sole source of knowledge on the subject), PHA is an irregular organization."
Irregular just means that your GL is not in amity with them.
Apparently, OH & WV consider each other irregular right now!
I like my Masonry just like my whiskey. Undiluted!
I just want to be a Mason.
S&F
G
Gary
Guest
Brother Bob,
If you want to select multiple quotes, Click the "multi" button and select the posts you want to quote, and they will appear in the message body for you to reply to.
Back on topic, I don't get the whole idea of recognition without visitation thing either.
If you want to select multiple quotes, Click the "multi" button and select the posts you want to quote, and they will appear in the message body for you to reply to.
Back on topic, I don't get the whole idea of recognition without visitation thing either.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
You do realize that some PHA jurisdictions also require prior authorization from their "MS" counterparts , correct ?
removed12612
Guest
Bro. Franks.....
Just a correction...neither WV nor OH consider either irregular. WV has stopped fraternal relations with OH.....OH has not stopped any Brother from WV from visiting nor have they said the OH Brothers have to end relations with WV. In a nut shell, OH has no issues with WV....its only WV towards OH.....
Just a correction...neither WV nor OH consider either irregular. WV has stopped fraternal relations with OH.....OH has not stopped any Brother from WV from visiting nor have they said the OH Brothers have to end relations with WV. In a nut shell, OH has no issues with WV....its only WV towards OH.....
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Never heard that.
Visited 3 (Indiana was the first one) and though I called ahead (it's polite to let the WM know he'll need to have you examined) and let them know I'd planned to visit.
S&F
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
I have been informed by more than a few PHA Masons that this is the case . Some lodges are a little more laxed on this rule , and some are more stringent , so I will take their word for it .
ckeroflite
Bro. Junior Warden
Well said Brother. I hail from MWPHGLNE Rescue Lodge # 4. I have been reading the passages posted throughout this entry, and I have to say that I am blown away that within such a beautiful organization there are still differences, differences that can be easily rectified by way of masonry.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
I think that here, at least, we ARE. Do not lose the faith, never stop fighting the good fight. One day we will all be able to sit with all our brothers everywhere.