No felonies

[devlin]

I recall a post when I joined here telling me to stir things up... so I shall....

I was listening to the radio when I heard a man talk about how he went hunting, followed all the rules and laws, obtained all the proper licenses and permits. The federal government was not happy with this person and charged him with a felony that was so obscure that not only would the average citizen know of it but even the judge trying the case never heard of it.

It was a case of the government going after an individual because they did not like him publicly discussing his political views.

The government to be vindictive used the law as a weapon. If he had not plead to a lesser charge he would have had the felony charge not only would it remove his right to vote, hunt, or own a firearm it would keep him from being able to become a Mason.

This bothers me a lot. It is why I wonder why many GL's are dead set on a no felony policy. I understand this is an extreme minority case but in the past governments have been known to go after others with trumped up charges including Masonry itself. From what I've read Masonry has had more than a few run ins with various governments over the centuries some leading to the deaths of thousands of good Freemasons.

 

[jason]

Tough for me to decide to be honest. While I've known a person or two that has plead to a lesser charger either because of bad council or other reasons, there are often those who feel they are innocent even though they are not. I've ghouth I've read before that some times an exception can be made, but to be honest, I cannot remember if it pertains to Freemasonry or not. I am beat for the day, and maybe the weekend, so I'll end with a quote from the "famous" Coughlin; The luck is gone / the brain is shot / but the liquor we still got.

 

[goomba]

I was a federal LEO and am now a local LEO. I find the above very hard to believe. FYI the average citizen knowns almost nothing about the most common laws. Like Freemasonry, law enforcement had tons of misinformation floating around.

 

[devlin]

I was a federal LEO and am now a local LEO. I find the above very hard to believe. FYI the average citizen knowns almost nothing about the most common laws. Like Freemasonry, law enforcement had tons of misinformation floating around.

This too bothers me.. Because you break a law that is not commonly known and the judicial system tells you "ignorance of the law is no excuse." It should be an excuse if it is known that the average citizen does not know it exists. How can you not break it if you did not know it was illegal? It makes me understand why in the federalist papers lawyers were not allowed to hold political office.

 

[Bob Franks]

I recall a post when I joined here telling me to stir things up... so I shall....

I was listening to the radio when I heard a man talk about how he went hunting, followed all the rules and laws, obtained all the proper licenses and permits. The federal government was not happy with this person and charged him with a felony that was so obscure that not only would the average citizen know of it but even the judge trying the case never heard of it.

It was a case of the government going after an individual because they did not like him publicly discussing his political views.

The government to be vindictive used the law as a weapon. If he had not plead to a lesser charge he would have had the felony charge not only would it remove his right to vote, hunt, or own a firearm it would keep him from being able to become a Mason.

This bothers me a lot. It is why I wonder why many GL's are dead set on a no felony policy. I understand this is an extreme minority case but in the past governments have been known to go after others with trumped up charges including Masonry itself. From what I've read Masonry has had more than a few run ins with various governments over the centuries some leading to the deaths of thousands of good Freemasons.

Thanks for stirring things up! I am happy to see a seed planted grow into a flower...or even a tall weed!

I am against "no-tolerance policies," and other laws and regulations that treat situations with a meat-ax instead of a fine scalpel to cut out something bad.
Would you want your surgeon to only have a machete available to remove your appendix?

We are fortunate in NC (AF&AM) to be able to consider a criminal record in evaluating a petitioner, but not be slavishly bound to reject one for a youthful indiscretion long since paid for and learned from.
I was thrilled some months ago to sit in a foreign (non-NC) lodge and see a petition considered from a man who had been convicted years ago of a felony regarding putting a different license plate on a car to drive it (yes, that was a felony in that jurisdiction), but had lived a very straight life since, and see him elected to the degrees.
What about pardons? If the governor or the president has issued a pardon, does this wipe away the felony in a Masonic light? In most places it is not complete: the vote is typically restored, but not the right to own a firearm.

I do not believe we should elect willy-nilly anyone who has completed the legal requirements of a criminal sentence, but it should be only one factor in our consideration of a petition.

S&F

 

[jaya]

Someone that has recently been convicted of a felony I would be reluctant to cast a vote for in most circumstances. The same for someone that has a recent misdemeanor charge. It all depends on the charge and circumstances. I would not just take the petitioner's word for it either. Some further background investigation should be done to determine the circumstances of the case. If the situation is recent, how do we know that the man has learned their lesson and not involved. What about someone that is a known drug user? Or someone that cheats on their wife? Those may not have a criminal background, but would probably not get many votes to knock on the door. There is much that must be considered when voting on a man for the degrees of masonry. This why a good investigation is important. It is much easier to deal with an issue before a man has received the degrees than afterwords.

 

[devlin]

Bob Franks and Jaya,

I fully agree with the both of you. I would be very suspect, and investigate the person much more deeply, but toss out the application simply for the word "felony"...no. I'd need to know the information surrounding the felony.

 

[jaya]

Actually in NC, acording to our code under qualifications of petitioners:

REG. 66-1 QUALIFICATIONS.

11.He must not be under sentence or judgment for violation of any law of the land involving moral turpitude. His right to citizenship must have been restored in the event it was lost by such conviction and sentence.

13.He must not have received either an undesirable or dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces of the United States. If separation from the Armed Forces was under either of the proceeding classifications, satisfactory evidence must be submitted to verify the discharge has been changed by legal authority to at least a General Discharge.

But for those of us already a member under specific masonic offenses:

REG. 86-2 SPECIFIC MASONIC OFFENSES.

27.To commit, or to enter a plea of guilty or nolo contendere to, or to be convicted of, a felony under the laws of the State in which committed or tried, or under the laws, civil or military, of the United States of America. Penalty expulsion.

So one can be convicted of a felony and still be allowed to join, but if you are already a brother and are convicted of a felony, you are automatically expelled. I would expect more times than not, someone convicted of a felony would get at least one black cube.

 

[Custer148]

IMHO I think the question is on the petition to find out if the petitioner will try to cover up his past or will answer truthfully and let the chip fall where they will. If the investigation committee does their job they will probably uncover something on any felony.

 

[jaya]

It would show up as soon as the background check cam back anyway. Our GL requires a criminal background check on all new petitions.

 

[devlin]

It would just seem to make sense

Actually in NC, acording to our code under qualifications of petitioners:



But for those of us already a member under specific masonic offenses:





So one can be convicted of a felony and still be allowed to join, but if you are already a brother and are convicted of a felony, you are automatically expelled. I would expect more times than not, someone convicted of a felony would get at least one black cube.

To me this makes much more sense. At least the Lodge it self is able to investigate and vote deciding on the person knowing everything and basing it on more than the word *felony* on a piece of paper.

 

[goomba]

A felony is more than a word on paper. It is an act or series of acts done by a person or group of people, that society through its elected officals finds unacceptable.

 

[FamilyMan]

Okay... my two kopecks. As to the jurisdiction where a felony is not an absolute bar to membership, but once a MM a felony will result in being expelled:

With the petitioner's background completely visible and open to inspection, you can better determine if the petitioner is a man is of upright character. A felony conviction from 20 years ago, and a spotless record since then may reflect that the person is of good character. It is up to the Lodge to determine that.

On the other side, if a Brother, after being raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason, commits a felony, then he is showing two things: he has failed to subdue his passions, and he has acted in a way to bring dishonor upon the Craft. You are in fact showing that you are not making good judgement or of good moral character.

Once you have become a Master Mason, you are in effect, being held to a higher standard, as well you should be.

 

[Winter]

devlin, could you please provide the details of the case in your initial post? I find that in cases like that there is usually more going on than "just" a vindictive government going after a person for exercising their right to engage in politics.

As to felonies, a line has to be put somewhere. Should there be a system in place to review the specifics of a special case? Sure. But the West Gate needs a LOT of guardsmen.

 

[devlin]

devlin, could you please provide the details of the case in your initial post? I find that in cases like that there is usually more going on than "just" a vindictive government going after a person for exercising their right to engage in politics.

As to felonies, a line has to be put somewhere. Should there be a system in place to review the specifics of a special case? Sure. But the West Gate needs a LOT of guardsmen.

I will try and find more info but hopefully posting these links is okay they talk about the case.
http://tinyurl.com/whydidnugentpleadguilty
http://tinyurl.com/VideoOfNugentsExplaination

As to the 2nd paragraph.. I completely agree!

 

[richard bradshaw]

i was convicted 25 years ago of serious crime , being then only 16 years of age and very poor conviction was easy enough for them . wrongfully so , as it turned out the real perp came to light but passed away not too long after . Thus followed lengthy investigations , lie detector tests and proof that it wasnt me . it wasnt murder , wont go into specifics , just yet .
Needless to say , its still my cross to bear . it is what it is . im very educated , im an artist and a lisenced chef now . a father of five great children , and a husband to an elegant woman of immaculent repute . my question is this ; why does this preclude myself from membership to a brotherhood that has had men from my family in it for the past 85 years ? i have the right to vote , can travel , cant own a firearm though . ive had petitions from a couple of high degrees but still to no avail . i will continue to petition as i continue to honor my charity and my community . not everyone that gets convicted of a crime is guilty . the way a man lives his life , how he picks up the peices and restores order from a chaotic life should be the determining factor for membership to this great brotherhood .
The "no felony" policy should apply only if it tarnishes the reputation of the lodge and the brothers therein . i would appreciate your input were it to help me better understand that to which i am questioning ?

 

[Gary2112]

i was convicted 25 years ago of serious crime , being then only 16 years of age and very poor conviction was easy enough for them . wrongfully so , as it turned out the real perp came to light but passed away not too long after . Thus followed lengthy investigations , lie detector tests and proof that it wasnt me . it wasnt murder , wont go into specifics , just yet .
Needless to say , its still my cross to bear . it is what it is . im very educated , im an artist and a lisenced chef now . a father of five great children , and a husband to an elegant woman of immaculent repute . my question is this ; why does this preclude myself from membership to a brotherhood that has had men from my family in it for the past 85 years ? i have the right to vote , can travel , cant own a firearm though . ive had petitions from a couple of high degrees but still to no avail . i will continue to petition as i continue to honor my charity and my community . not everyone that gets convicted of a crime is guilty . the way a man lives his life , how he picks up the peices and restores order from a chaotic life should be the determining factor for membership to this great brotherhood .
The "no felony" policy should apply only if it tarnishes the reputation of the lodge and the brothers therein . i would appreciate your input were it to help me better understand that to which i am questioning ?

If you do not have all of your civil rights restored, that is what is holding you back from gaining entry in to the fraternity. Get your record expunged if you were found not guilty. It's not so much a matter of you having been mixed up in some sort of wrongdoing in your previous life. It's a matter that you are not a completely "free"man ( you don't have all of your rights restored) because of the sentencing and or charges levied against you. . Therefore you cannot be recommended for petition.

 

[richard bradshaw]

thank you my friend , i would have known these things had my father lived a little longer . It might never happen , but still i will honor my charity and live by standards that befit and honor my father and grandfather .

 

[FamilyMan]

Mr. Bradshaw, are you the same Richard Bradshaw that was arrested in 1988 by the North Richland Hills Police Department in Texas?

Nevermind, your date of birth matches up.

Mr. Bradshaw, I wish you had been more honest and forthcoming with this forum, and I wish that you are equally honest in your petitions.

There is a Richard Bradshaw, whose date of birth matches exactly the DOB you have posted on your profile, who, at the very least, has three felony convictions on his record, and several other misdemeanors. The most recent of which is a 2008 felony conviction for failing to register as a sex offender.

If this isn't you, then perhaps your problem lies with the fact that there is someone with the same name and date of birth as you with a lengthy criminal record. If this is you, however, then your problem lies not only with your 1988 arrest and conviction for fondling a four year old boy, the several felony convictions since then for failing to register as a sex offender, and the numerous misdemeanor convictions, but in your lack of character for not being open and forthcoming on the entire situation.

If it is you, then I cannot put any faith and credit in the "how you have lived your life since then and picked up the pieces from the chaos" argument you make, since you've been arrested and convicted numerous times for other offenses since then, and had your parole revoked at one point. Not to mention that the Department of Public Safety still has you listed as a sex offender and still has your record as being a multiple time convicted felon.

But then again, if this is not you (it would be impossible for me to tell definitively if it is you without fingerprints) then your problem may be that there is someone living in Texas with the same name and DOB as you and a lengthy criminal record.

 

[nevburt]

Our GL has two questions regarding felonies on the petition. Have you ever been arrested or charged with a felony? And... Have you ever been convicted of a felony? What strikes me is that USA law is "innocent until proven guilty". I know as a private organization we can follow our own rules if within the laws of the country but this first question strikes me as unnecessary and potentially prejudicial. I know job applications are now asking the same questions.