Knights of Columbus

[Kevin C Livingston]

Brother Patrick Williams,
Allow me to add to the kudos! Being of a racially and religously diverse family I have come to appreciate the fact that Freemasonry's answer to the question of "Who's Right?" is "Everybody!". It is great to be part of something that all God fearing men (regrdless of the individual's concept of God) can come together and fellowship for the broadening of our minds!

Sorry, I hijacked yet another thread...

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I'd love to, but I'm bartending till 9PM.

Otherwise, I'd be all over that like white on rice in a glass of milk on paper plate in a snowstorm!

Ah. I'll try to get the next invite to you in a more timely fashion. We, however, always work on Tuesdays. Except, of course, when we don't.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Brother Patrick Williams,
Allow me to add to the kudos! Being of a racially and religously diverse family I have come to appreciate the fact that Freemasonry's answer to the question of "Who's Right?" is "Everybody!". It is great to be part of something that all God fearing men (regrdless of the individual's concept of God) can come together and fellowship for the broadening of our minds!

Sorry, I hijacked yet another thread...

Nice hijack, Kev. Thanks for the kudos. Yes, it's true that 'everyone's right'. When we look at the acts of others, keeping in mind that they have valid reasons (for a given value of valid) is very important.

 

[Winter]

We must have touched some kind of nerve with the Church! Here are the Papal Bulls concerning Freemasonry since 1738:

Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encyclical "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Allocution "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Allocution "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Constitution "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.

Wow! We must really be a threat! LOL

 

[Gary]

Freethinkers are a threat to any monarchy. Religious or otherwise.

 

[Winter]

And this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Clement XII accurately indicates the principal reasons why Masonic associations from the Catholic, Christian, moral, political, and social points of view, should be condemned. These reasons are:

•The peculiar, "unsectarian" (in truth, anti-Catholic and anti-Christian) naturalistic character of Freemasonry, by which theoretically and practically it undermines the Catholic and Christian faith, first in its members and through them in the rest of society, creating religious indifferentism and contempt for orthodoxy and ecclesiastical authority.

•The inscrutable secrecy and fallacious ever-changing disguise of the Masonic association and of its "work", by which "men of this sort break as thieves into the house and like foxes endeavour to root up the vineyard", "perverting the hearts of the simple", ruining their spiritual and temporal welfare.

•The oaths of secrecy and of fidelity to Masonry and Masonic work, which cannot be justified in their scope, their object, or their form, and cannot, therefore, induce any obligation. The oaths are condemnable, because the scope and object of Masonry are "wicked" and condemnable, and the candidate in most cases is ignorant of the import or extent of the obligation which he takes upon himself. Moreover the ritualistic and doctrinal "secrets" which are the principal object of the obligation, according to the highest Masonic authorities, are either trifles or no longer exist. [212] In either case the oath is a condemnable abuse. Even the Masonic modes of recognition, which are represented as the principal and only essential "secret" of Masonry, are published in many printed books. Hence the real "secrets" of Masonry, if such there be, could only be political or anti-religious conspiracies like the plots of the Grand Lodges in Latin countries. But such secrets, condemned, at least theoretically, by Anglo-American Masons themselves, would render the oath or obligation only the more immoral and therefore null and void. Thus in every respect the Masonic oaths are not only sacrilegious but also an abuse contrary to public order which requires that solemn oaths and obligations as the principal means to maintain veracity and faithfulness in the State and in human society, should not be vilified or caricatured. In Masonry the oath is further degraded by its form which includes the most atrocious penalties, for the "violation of obligations" which do not even exist; a "violation" which, in truth may be and in many cases is an imperative duty.

•The danger which such societies involve for the security and "tranquility of the State" and for "the spiritual health of souls", and consequently their incompatibility with civil and canonical law. For even admitting that some Masonic associations pursued for themselves no purposes contrary to religion and to public order, they would be nevertheless contrary to public order, because by their very existence as secret societies based on the Masonic principles, they encourage and promote the foundation of other really dangerous secret societies and render difficult, if not impossible, efficacious action of the civil and ecclesiastical authorities against them.

 

[Windrider]

Wow... I'm at a loss for words, Winter. That's not something I'm used to

I was always told (I grew up Roman Catholic) that the reason Catholics couldn't be Masons was because there could be no secrets between a priest and a person in the Confessional. I have since been told that this view has been rescinded. Is the Encyclopedia you are quoting current?

 

[Winter]

Here is the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Church's stance on Freemasonry:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Masonry (Freemasonry)

In 1983, then Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) Cardinal of the Church of the Doctrine of the Faith (modern name for the Holy Inquisition) wrote a letter addressing the fact that all mention of Freemasonry was left out of the proceedings of Vatican II, leaving some to assume that membership was now permissable.

Freemasonry

Here's a quote:

"Therefore, the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion."

He hasn't softened his stance since then, either. His first week in office Ratzinger reissued all of the Bulls that John Paul II (I liked him) left out during Vat. ii.

 

[Winter]

Really? Nobody has nothin to say? lol

 

[Kevin C Livingston]

Really? Nobody has nothin to say? lol

Nope, you covered it too well!

 

[removed12612]

good Boy.......

 

[Windrider]

I sure wish you were wrong on this one, Winter but you seem to be entirely correct based on your references. I guess all my Catholic Brothers have a dilemma on their hands. Personally, I think God knows the truth and would take exception to these rules if it were not for that annoying "free will" thingie. A man's relationship with the Divine is in his heart, not his Church.

 

[Winter]

This is one of the issues I think. I've talked with one or two individuals who wanted to join and were Catholic. I always ask them if they've talked with their priest and family about it. The last thing I want to do is come between a man and his faith and his family.

I also make sure they are aware of the Catholic Church's position on the subject as well. I know several Catholics that have joined the Order anyway.

 

[Bob Franks]

We must have touched some kind of nerve with the Church! Here are the Papal Bulls concerning Freemasonry since 1738:

[snip]
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
[snip]
Wow! We must really be a threat! LOL

Leo XIII basically said in this one, that any organization not OF the church was AGAINST the church.

...So, why do they condone Boy Scouts? You don't have to be RC to be a Scout, and it is not under the control of Holy Church!

bob franks, PM, CL
Wayne Lodge 112 Goldsboro, NC

 

[486]

Leo XIII basically said in this one, that any organization not OF the church was AGAINST the church.

...So, why do they condone Boy Scouts? You don't have to be RC to be a Scout, and it is not under the control of Holy Church!

bob franks, PM, CL
Wayne Lodge 112 Goldsboro, NC

And the scouts were founded by a Mason! More proof of how we plan to take over the world by indoctrinating our youth.

I have to remember to keep my passions withing due bounds on this topic, but I find the inconsistencies to be ludicrous at times.

 

[Bob Franks]

Do your, or your Lodge get along with the local Knights of Columbus chapters/lodges? Do you have joint ventures?

From my understanding we used to have some communications with them, supporting some of their charity work. But things fell apart when they would not reciprocate. We have no problems, again from my understanding, with a person being a duel member though.

I don't have any contact with them as an organization, but my boss became a KoC back when we shared an office at a state hospital. Now that I've retired from that, and work for him in a small business, he calls me on Wednesday mornings at Masonic Breakfast and asks how we're doing taking over the world.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I think we also need to put this into real-world context. Over the years, I have interviewed (here in Wisconsin, we don't investigate a petitioner, we interview them) several petitioners who were Catholic. I always take a lot of care to inform them about the policy of the Catholic Church regarding Freemasonry. They always laugh at me when I do this. Really. They laugh. Then I tell them that I'm not fooling around, that it's true that the Church opposes Masonry and that they can be cut off (including excommunication) by their church if they choose to pursue membership. Then they (always) laugh at me again. I have yet to see one petitioner who has withdrawn their application because of the Church's stand on our fraternity.

In fact, one Catholic Mason tells me that he confronted his priest about the church's stand. He also told his priest that a) he was a Mason and b) he intended to continue being a Mason. Funnily, he has not been cut off from taking Holy Communion, nor has he been made unwelcome in any manner by his local church.

In essence, what this all boils down to is: I think that we (Masons) make a much bigger deal about the Catholic strictures against us than practicing Catholics do. Occasionally a Pope puts out a bull against us. Occasionally an Archbishop reminds his flock that the Church demands that its members not participate in Freemasonry. But to the average Catholic on the street, this does not really seem to have an awful lot of impact. Certainly, there may be those who choose to join KoC instead (although with so many local KoC's selling off their property and folding, I wonder about that, too), certainly there must be the occasional Catholic who withdraws his petition from Masonry when he realizes that the Church opposes us. But overall, I have come to the conclusion (granted, from my own limited perspective) that the Catholic strictures against our order are more of a tempest in a teapot than an actual threat to the Fraternity.

 

[Winter]

Maybe I've just got a chip on my shoulder when it comes to "Holy Mother Church." LOL

 

[Gary]

I think Patrick has a point. My issue isn't with catholics, I have issues with the church itself in regards to Freemasonry. That said, I have several friends who are catholic, some of whom are Masons.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I think Patrick has a point.

Yes, but fortunately, what's left of my hair covers it.

My issue isn't with catholics, I have issues with the church itself in regards to Freemasonry. That said, I have several friends who are catholic, some of whom are Masons.

But would you want your sister to date one? Sorry ... couldn't resist.