Winter
I've been here before
As have I, but I would like to hear others thoughts on the matter.
Quick Question
- Thread starter AngelicHuman
- Start date
AngelicHuman
New Member
Im aware of those facts. his foreign policies are questionable. if anything. there has to be a wind down of changes. We all know you cant just quit something cold turkey without serious consequences.
now if i go way off here. you can quit smoking cigarettes cold turkey, but the trust is most likely in the process of quitting you will develop side effects. Anger, desperation..a one track mind. if you get through it. You are better again.
To withdraw our troops is one thing, but there is more to it. lol
I feel the question is. Are we ready to to dive right in?
G
Gary
Guest
I think we should dive right in to your original question. Politics wasn't the crux of your question.
G
Gary
Guest
If the topic goes in territory that will cause discord among our members, I'll lock the thread. If the post originator persists, he will get a warning or could receive worse. We aren't there...yet.
AngelicHuman
New Member
I think the legalizing of medical marijuana is fine if thats what the state wants. some states just wont have it, and it will probably always be that way. so under his system the states that want it. want it. the states that do not just wont have it. the medical possibilities to are sound.
if a state legalizes say..Cocain, Heroin. then...well. i certainly wouldnt agree with that friends! =)
if a state legalizes say..Cocain, Heroin. then...well. i certainly wouldnt agree with that friends! =)
AngelicHuman
New Member
sorry. I didnt see your post gary. i went to the bathroom then finished it lol.
but yes back to my original question
but yes back to my original question
G
Gary
Guest
No problem. We don't discuss politics or any other topics that tend to get folks riled up here. It's kind of an unspoken rule. Thanks for understanding.
Winter
I've been here before
My stance is, for those Masons that spend any time in places where Freemasonry is outright illegal, I see nothing wrong with a Brother lying about being a member.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasonry-islamic-countries.html
I also see many instances, politics included, where a Brother would want to keep his membership (a very private thing sometimes) from the public at large.
Is lying wrong? Yes. Is it necessary sometimes? Of course. When I was in Law Enforcement it was an acceptable practice to use deceit and trickery (upheld by the Supreme Court) to illicit a confession or other information. (I was a skilled interrogator) Was this wrong?
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasonry-islamic-countries.html
I also see many instances, politics included, where a Brother would want to keep his membership (a very private thing sometimes) from the public at large.
Is lying wrong? Yes. Is it necessary sometimes? Of course. When I was in Law Enforcement it was an acceptable practice to use deceit and trickery (upheld by the Supreme Court) to illicit a confession or other information. (I was a skilled interrogator) Was this wrong?
G
Gary
Guest
Not according to the Supreme Court it wasn't. There are pro's and con's to that though. We had a case here locally where the detective went way out of bounds with that, and nearly got a conviction of a suspect who wasn't guilty or even at the scene of the crime. But that's off topic...
I see it as a necessity for law enforcement to be able to obtain the truth.
removed12612
Guest
In America, I dont believe we should "out" a Brother but I also dont believe one should lie either. If asked and he wishes to not say then he should say that is a personal issue and I wont say yes or no..... conspiracy theorist will make up what the want anyways so refuse to answer.....Lying (still in reference to America) is not a honorable or reputable trait and not one I would expect from a mason.
No on the foreign country issues..... should membership be a potential problem in their life...well...then that would be a different story. Often lies are told for safety sake......if someone asked me at gun point would I vote for Barry O and if no was my answer,I would die...then my answer would be an emphatic...HELL YES.......I would say just about anything to prevent bodily injury to myself or family members.....
No on the foreign country issues..... should membership be a potential problem in their life...well...then that would be a different story. Often lies are told for safety sake......if someone asked me at gun point would I vote for Barry O and if no was my answer,I would die...then my answer would be an emphatic...HELL YES.......I would say just about anything to prevent bodily injury to myself or family members.....
Winter
I've been here before
A Review of Legal Issues Concerning Trickery and Deceit During an Interrogation - PoliceLink
Perhaps I should have stated that none of my cases were overturned! LOL And I got pretty creative!
removed12612
Guest
Now...did you LIE or did you take a bit of artistic freedom and maybe omit certain parts????
Winter
I've been here before
Oh, I outright lied to the scumbags to make them think I had information I didn't in order to get them to tell me what I didn't know. And I'd do it again! LOL
G
Gary
Guest
You'll get nuthin' out of me cop-per... LOL
removed12612
Guest
I use that tactic at times with my kids (not that they are scumbags)..... I tell them I already know the answer so they dont need to lie...... NOW, me knowing the answer and having factual evidence is a different story..... knowing and proving are two separate issues......its all semantics....
BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
I don't like the idea of it. I proudly answer yes. If it leads to a good discourse pro or anti SMIB, but when it's an ugly situation I would feel the need to hide my membership.
Winter
I've been here before
By: Rabbi Ari Enkin
While lying is certainly a habit that no one should accustom themselves to, there are times however, when it may be justified. Nevertheless, even in such situations it is recommend not to deviate from the truth more than is absolutely necessary. We are taught to keep as far away from lying as possible,[1] and that the seal of God is “truth”.[2] Telling the truth is said to be a segula to be saved from disease and epidemic.[3] Someone who is known to lie will not be believed even when he is telling the truth.[4] Even saying one thing when really intending another is also considered crooked.[5] Lying is so severe that it is considered comparable to the transgression of worshipping idols.[6] It is even forbidden to lie when the result would cause no one any harm or loss.[7] It is forbidden to lie to any human being, Jew or Gentile.[8]
That being said, there are a number of situations when bending the truth may be in order. The most frequently cited example of this is lying in order to bring peace between people.[9] The Talmud[10] relates that when two people had ceased speaking to each other as the result of a dispute, Aharon would go and tell one of the parties that the other individual was deeply distressed at what had taken place. Aharon would then go to the other party and do the same thing. Afterwards, with each one believing that the other had deeply regretted what had transpired, they would embrace and make up the next time they saw each other. Similarly, Yosef’s brothers had lied to him when they said that their father had asked Yosef to forgive them for having sold him off to Egypt.[11] Even in such situations of justifiable lying it is imperative that deviating from the truth will not possibly harm or otherwise disadvantage any of the parties involved.[12] This includes the requirement to omit any “lashon hara” components even if requested regarding them.[13]
It seems from the Talmud[14] that bestowing an undeserved compliment is to be preferred over saying a truth which would insult another person. For example,[15] if one is not interested in eating food that one has been served, it would be permitted to decline the offer by saying that one has recently eaten and not hungry. One should not say that the food one had been served tastes bad and is not how one would have preferred it. It is also permitted to say that an unattractive bride looks beautiful or that ugly clothes that someone had purchased are actually nice.
Additionally, it is permitted to lie out of modesty regarding one’s achievements, both material as well as spiritual ones.[16] Another area where lying might be the right thing to do, is in order to save another person from being embarrassed[17] or harmed.[18] The Midrash relates a famous story to this effect. When Avraham was traveling to Egypt, he hid Sara in a box and lied about the box’s contents when asked about it at customs. Avraham knew that if Sara were to be discovered she would be taken by for immoral purposes.[19]
[1] Shemot 20:16, 23:7, Vayikra 19:11, Chinuch 74, Mishna Berura 156:4
[2] Sanhedrin 64a
[3] Kaf Hachaim 116:62
[4] Sanhedrin 89b
[5] Pesachim 113b
[6] Sanhedrin 92a
[7] Sefer Chareidim 26
[8] Chullin 94a, Orchot Chaim of the Rosh 130
[9] C.M. 262:21, Sefer Chassidim 426
[10] Avot D’rabbi Natan 12: 3
[11] Bereishit 50:16;Rashi
[12] Yevamot 65b
[13] Chafetz Chaim, Issurei Rechilut 1:8
[14] Ketubot 17a;Tosfot
[15] Eruvin 53b
[16] Bava Metzia 23b, Taz 565:6, Magen Avraham 565:7
[17] Bava Metzia 23b
[18] Bava Metzia 24a;Rashi, Nedarim 27b
[19] Tanchuma Lech Lecha 5
While lying is certainly a habit that no one should accustom themselves to, there are times however, when it may be justified. Nevertheless, even in such situations it is recommend not to deviate from the truth more than is absolutely necessary. We are taught to keep as far away from lying as possible,[1] and that the seal of God is “truth”.[2] Telling the truth is said to be a segula to be saved from disease and epidemic.[3] Someone who is known to lie will not be believed even when he is telling the truth.[4] Even saying one thing when really intending another is also considered crooked.[5] Lying is so severe that it is considered comparable to the transgression of worshipping idols.[6] It is even forbidden to lie when the result would cause no one any harm or loss.[7] It is forbidden to lie to any human being, Jew or Gentile.[8]
That being said, there are a number of situations when bending the truth may be in order. The most frequently cited example of this is lying in order to bring peace between people.[9] The Talmud[10] relates that when two people had ceased speaking to each other as the result of a dispute, Aharon would go and tell one of the parties that the other individual was deeply distressed at what had taken place. Aharon would then go to the other party and do the same thing. Afterwards, with each one believing that the other had deeply regretted what had transpired, they would embrace and make up the next time they saw each other. Similarly, Yosef’s brothers had lied to him when they said that their father had asked Yosef to forgive them for having sold him off to Egypt.[11] Even in such situations of justifiable lying it is imperative that deviating from the truth will not possibly harm or otherwise disadvantage any of the parties involved.[12] This includes the requirement to omit any “lashon hara” components even if requested regarding them.[13]
It seems from the Talmud[14] that bestowing an undeserved compliment is to be preferred over saying a truth which would insult another person. For example,[15] if one is not interested in eating food that one has been served, it would be permitted to decline the offer by saying that one has recently eaten and not hungry. One should not say that the food one had been served tastes bad and is not how one would have preferred it. It is also permitted to say that an unattractive bride looks beautiful or that ugly clothes that someone had purchased are actually nice.
Additionally, it is permitted to lie out of modesty regarding one’s achievements, both material as well as spiritual ones.[16] Another area where lying might be the right thing to do, is in order to save another person from being embarrassed[17] or harmed.[18] The Midrash relates a famous story to this effect. When Avraham was traveling to Egypt, he hid Sara in a box and lied about the box’s contents when asked about it at customs. Avraham knew that if Sara were to be discovered she would be taken by for immoral purposes.[19]
[1] Shemot 20:16, 23:7, Vayikra 19:11, Chinuch 74, Mishna Berura 156:4
[2] Sanhedrin 64a
[3] Kaf Hachaim 116:62
[4] Sanhedrin 89b
[5] Pesachim 113b
[6] Sanhedrin 92a
[7] Sefer Chareidim 26
[8] Chullin 94a, Orchot Chaim of the Rosh 130
[9] C.M. 262:21, Sefer Chassidim 426
[10] Avot D’rabbi Natan 12: 3
[11] Bereishit 50:16;Rashi
[12] Yevamot 65b
[13] Chafetz Chaim, Issurei Rechilut 1:8
[14] Ketubot 17a;Tosfot
[15] Eruvin 53b
[16] Bava Metzia 23b, Taz 565:6, Magen Avraham 565:7
[17] Bava Metzia 23b
[18] Bava Metzia 24a;Rashi, Nedarim 27b
[19] Tanchuma Lech Lecha 5
removed12612
Guest
ALL Brothers in happy relationships lie...... at times it may be the prudent thing to do to save hurting another feelings.... example: A few years ago my daughter made me a cake for my birthday and it was all I could do to choke it down when I ate it....but looked her straight in the face and told her I thought it was the most wonderful food I have ever eaten..... did I lie...yep.... was it the right thing to do....yep....would I do it again....yep....