What is your opinion of felons in Freemasonry?

[Bob Franks]

Those would be circumstances in which I could be in agreement. People change, and that is proof of that.

Now, an applicant being found to have lied on his petition...


S&F

 

[Gary]

That's a different story entirely. Deceit has no place in the Lodge.

 

[Winter]

People change. Yes.

But at the same time, do we not want only the best that society has to offer?

Freemasonry should, by our very definition, be elitists.

 

[removed12612]

People change. Yes.

But at the same time, do we not want only the best that society has to offer?

Freemasonry should, by our very definition, be elitists.

How do we go about this?.....Societal standards on what is the best is just as much subject to understanding as putting a definition on morality.

Elitist???..... to me this term is contrary to part of what being a mason (to me) teaches.... acceptance...... What scale do we use to define Elite??? Is the farmer that never went past high school not on the same level as the man with a PhD....... To me "Elitist" is a derogatory term.... I prefer the word "Selective"..... it, to me, is more of what I understand we are.

 

[DavisB]

How do we go about this?.....Societal standards on what is the best is just as much subject to understanding as putting a definition on morality.

Elitist???..... to me this term is contrary to part of what being a mason (to me) teaches.... acceptance...... What scale do we use to define Elite??? Is the farmer that never went past high school not on the same level as the man with a PhD....... To me "Elitist" is a derogatory term.... I prefer the word "Selective"..... it, to me, is more of what I understand we are.

I agree. I think I understand what he meant, but I do not believe that elitism is what Freemasonry teaches.

Hasn't Masonry always taught acceptance and toleration? Wasn't it a place where the noble, wealthy class would come and meet on the level with the working class men of their day? My understanding of Freemasonry is that it is something that disregards all class affiliations and education levels, and instead brings together those men who have dedicated themselves to being better men. Regardless of the societal pedestal they may have entered on.

I do not think that the best thing for Freemasonry is to open it up to anyone by any means. But I think that if a man possesses that essential desire to learn to subdue his passions and improve himself in Masonry, than he should be welcomed in as a brother. All men have that room for improvement, even Masons.

I think that when we start to think of ourselves as inherently elite we have strayed from what we set out to do. I believe that the goal of any Mason is to, with the knowledge in mind that he is a flawed and imperfect ashlar (just like all other men), undertake the journey to remove the vices and superfluities of life.

It is the quest of perfection that sets Masons apart. But, because we can never truly be perfect ashlars, we will remain akin to those men who never set out on that journey.

We are only set apart because we have undertaken that noble quest to make ourselves better. We are not elite through it because we cannot ever achieve it.

$0.02---Hope that was easy enough to follow.

 

[removed12612]

NICE!!!..... very well said Brother.

I believe when we review a petition and do our investigations, we must keep the saying:
"Let he without sin cast the first stone"

Now dont get me wrong.... we MUST Guard the West Gate and not just open it for every man..... but we must be willing to hear the whole story before we simply say NOPE.....we must however follow the rules of our GL

 

[DavisB]

NICE!!!..... very well said Brother.

I believe when we review a petition and do our investigations, we must keep the saying:
"Let he without sin cast the first stone"

Now dont get me wrong.... we MUST Guard the West Gate and not just open it for every man..... but we must be willing to hear the whole story before we simply say NOPE.....we must however follow the rules of our GL

Exactly. I however, currently have no idea how the GL of TN feels about the matter. My post was simply my personal opinion.

 

[Winter]

I am going to royally piss off a lot of Brothers on this forum with this post.

We. Are. Elitist.

A man who would be a Brother in our Order must already have proved his worth in society. Before he ever knows the shape or form of a Lodge.

Masonry has nothing to do with toleration or acceptance when considering members of society who are not wholeheartedly devoted to its betterment.

The Christian values of "casting stones" have no place in Masonry.

We are not a self-help program or a 12 step program. We do not exist to help people get back on their feet. We have always been a Society that was meant to be a Haven for the best that our respective communities have to offer in order to band together for the betterment of the world around us.

When we, as an Order, decide to lower our standards and admit any who might want to better themselves or maybe be interested, in order to swell our ranks, we do nothing but insult our Brothers who came before us.

We must only admit that man who has shown that he is devoted to his fellow human being and his community. Not the man who "wants to make a change". Let him make the change first.

I challenge any Brother to debate why we should not be elitist and only ever admit the best that the world has to offer. I will accept no less in the Brothers around me.

I will not stand on the wall beside a Brother who is not as dedicated to the cause as I am.

 

[Gary]

I am going to royally piss off a lot of Brothers on this forum with this post.

Undoubtedly true.

We. Are. Elitist.

OK, The jury is still out on my feelings about this, but I'll bite...

A man who would be a Brother in our Order must already have proved his worth in society. Before he ever knows the shape or form of a Lodge.

Absolutely. Does that mean a felon who has learned his lesson and bettered himself before petitioning is ineligible?

Masonry has nothing to do with toleration or acceptance when considering members of society who are not wholeheartedly devoted to its betterment.

I'll agree with that.

The Christian values of "casting stones" have no place in Masonry.

True. Such references are biased toward one religion and exclude others. That's why religion is not discussed in Lodge. (although I do see what Fireman was trying to convey.)

We are not a self-help program or a 12 step program. We do not exist to help people get back on their feet. We have always been a Society that was meant to be a Haven for the best that our respective communities have to offer in order to band together for the betterment of the world around us.

And that includes all walks of life. We don't make bad men better. We make good men better. The good man can and does make mistakes and sometimes does bad things, and afterwards strives to improve himself. Does that mean that he is ultimately is not worthy?

When we, as an Order, decide to lower our standards and admit any who might want to better themselves or maybe be interested, in order to swell our ranks, we do nothing but insult our Brothers who came before us.

I think I understand your point, but I disagree with the way you worded it. The statement in bold is my sticking point.

We must only admit that man who has shown that he is devoted to his fellow human being and his community. Not the man who "wants to make a change". Let him make the change first.

Exactly. That's guarding the Western Gate.

I challenge any Brother to debate why we should not be elitist and only ever admit the best that the world has to offer. I will accept no less in the Brothers around me.

As long as "the best the world has to offer" isn't corrupted to mean the same thing as today's corrupted commonly perceived definition of elitist. (He who has the money is elite)

 

[edwmax]

People change. Yes.

But at the same time, do we not want only the best that society has to offer?

Freemasonry should, by our very definition, be elitists.

I agree people change, some made mistakes and paid for them. The question I would have, "what makes this petitioner stand head & shoulder above any other petitioner?" ... "Does the 'reputation & good standing' of this petitioner out weigh his being a convicted felon?" ... "Will accepting this convicted felon into the Lodge keep other Good Men & well recognized leaders away?" Is the Lodge willing to take on a reputation of being a club for the 'Chain Gang'?

I know of a Lodge not far from me that has 5 convicted felons as Members (ex-police). The situation within that Lodge has not been good for a number of years and MMs in the area don't speak of them or visit that Lodge.

For me to accept a convicted felon into the Lodge, he will have to be proven to be a credit to the Lodge and not just another dues paying member who is a convicted felon.

 

[mdonahue66]

Winter, you make so many good points, but I have to disagree with you on the elitist thing. I won't engage in debate, because you are much better versed, and would probably crush me. When I joined the fraternity, I was told we make good men better. I consider myself a good man, but I also believe most men are. I'm curious, how many men on this forum consider themselves to be elite? I do not.

While I don't necessarily agree with you here, you must try much harder to "piss me off"

 

[removed12612]

Not pissed...you are entitled to you opinion....but I will offer a rebuttal (I know...what a surprise)....

WB Winter....please do give me a definitive definition of what you consider "elitist"..... one that does not allow for interpretation.....when one can be defined, then maybe I will agree.....Second, what standards do you consider elite.....masonry is a universal "thought" but it is not applied the same in all areas......I have see far too many Brothers call themselves elite....but have yet to make the remotest step to better themselves...but they call themselves elite because of their status in life.......If we used the term "Selective"..... that would allow for a better description of how we decide on who we allow past the West Gate.....

"Casting Stone" may be a Christian parable but it is applicable...we all understand the meaning....and I am sure you could find its equal in all religions.....BUT...just in case let try this one:

"People who live in glass houses should not through stones".......(***not directed at anyone involved in this conversation)

 

[Winter]

Check out the definition from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: elite

Function: noun

Etymology: French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere

1 a singular or plural in construction : the choice part : Cream (the elite of the entertainment world) b singular or plural in construction : the best of a class (superachievers who dominate the computer elite -- Marilyn Chase) c singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society (how the elite live -- A P World) (how the F.-speaking eliteEconomist) d : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence (members of the ruling elite) (the intellectual elites of the country) e : a member of such an elite -- usually used in plural (the elites ..., pursuing their studies in Europe -- Robert Wernick) ... was changing --


The definition of Elite and by extension, elitist seems to indicate that we are a group of elitists in that we only select, or, rather, allow, only the best, most honorable men into the fraternity.

 

[DavisB]

Check out the definition from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: elite

Function: noun

Etymology: French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere

1 a singular or plural in construction : the choice part : Cream (the elite of the entertainment world) b singular or plural in construction : the best of a class (superachievers who dominate the computer elite -- Marilyn Chase) c singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society (how the elite live -- A P World) (how the F.-speaking eliteEconomist) d : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence (members of the ruling elite) (the intellectual elites of the country) e : a member of such an elite -- usually used in plural (the elites ..., pursuing their studies in Europe -- Robert Wernick) ... was changing --


The definition of Elite and by extension, elitist seems to indicate that we are a group of elitists in that we only select, or, rather, allow, only the best, most honorable men into the fraternity.

But doesn't the definition of elite mean that Freemasons would be the best that the world has to offer? I believe that the group that we both belong to is one of a very noble purpose, but I also believe that there have been, are, and will be, many great men who aren't Masons.

I understand what you have said about Freemasonry not being a self-help program, only existing to help men make a change. But instead you have suggested that the purpose of Freemasonry is to effect change in the community.... My response to that point is this: I completely agree. Freemasonry aims to improve the community. But by what means? Freemasonry aims to improve the community by first improving the man. Before men have improved themselves, how can they hope to change their community. I think this is illustrated very clearly by the working tools. With the occasional exception of one, maybe two, the working tools are meant to be used by the individual mason to improve himself. Thereby making himself a better stone for building (there is the community part). Before a man can hope to contribute to the construction of a better building, or, the improvement of the community, he must first look at himself and employ the working tools to make improvements. You mentioned in a previous post that

We must only admit that man who has shown that he is devoted to his fellow human being and his community. Not the man who "wants to make a change". Let him make the change first.

Do the lessons of the working tools not ask for changes to be made to the man? I think I do understand what you meant, that we are not a self-help program, but at the same time, I do not see how a man could truly examine the teachings of the degrees and not see areas of his life where improvements could be made.

I guess my ultimate question is this:
Is Freemasonry not about building better men so that they may go and better the world?

 

[edwmax]

Our 2008 Worshipful Master was recently discovered to be a three time convicted felon. He failed to disclose his lengthy criminal history on his membership petition and carried on the deceit for over a decade. I feel his actions are an affront to every Master Mason in good standing all across the globe.

After re-reading the OP, I see the the Member was convicted felon 3 X's; and he LIED on the petition.

In my GL, this would be grounds for Charges and the more serious charge being 'concealing material facts' (lying on the petition). This would result in that member being expelled and his Masonic record expunged from the Lodge & GL as if he was never a member. It might have been for him to be excepted if everyone knew of his felonies; but the fact he lied on the petition proves his continued deceit & dis-honesty. ... not good ....

 

[Winter]

Of course there are men who are nothing but honorable that are not Masons. My stance is, and always will be, that we should only ever accept members from the best that society has to offer. the elite of that society in the sense that they are the best, not necessarily monetarily. Men who have proven that they are dedicated to improving themselves even more, as well as the world around them. I will always be very leary about accepting a man with a checkered past who claims to have changed. Freemasonry is about making good men better, not making men who may be alright now better.

Ergo, when it comes to Masonry, I will always be an elitist. It's not for everyone. And I love Freemasonry a great deal because it joins me with other men with the highest ideals.

That being said, every case must be investigated on it's own merits and the individual investigated based on the facts. But we must remember, when we accept the man into our Order, we also accept his past into our Order. And our detractors can and will use that against us. Sometimes we must make the difficult decisions for the good of the Fraternity as a whole.

 

[edwmax]

In reference to Elite: ... this is an exert from the Sunday Masonic News by Cochran Lodge.

".... Are we ashamed today to think that our fraternity is an elite organization? Or, perhaps, we do not believe that it is!

We have high standards; admit no one who is not moral, upright before God and of good repute before the world. We do "good works" throughout the United States that are worth billions of dollars. The secret is that it is okay to be elite; but we should not be elitist. Elite is to have high standards; elitist is to consider yourself better than everyone else and to let them know it.
To be an elite organization requires constant effort. It can never be satisfied with the status quo; the standards can always be lifted. ....'

 

[Winter]

In reference to Elite: ... this is an exert from the Sunday Masonic News by Cochran Lodge.

".... Are we ashamed today to think that our fraternity is an elite organization? Or, perhaps, we do not believe that it is!

We have high standards; admit no one who is not moral, upright before God and of good repute before the world. We do "good works" throughout the United States that are worth billions of dollars. The secret is that it is okay to be elite; but we should not be elitist. Elite is to have high standards; elitist is to consider yourself better than everyone else and to let them know it.
To be an elite organization requires constant effort. It can never be satisfied with the status quo; the standards can always be lifted. ....'

I understand where it is coming from, and the term elitist can have such a negative connotation. But at the same time, I honestly believe that Freemasonry makes me a better person. That I have accepted the responsibility for my Brother, my fellow man, and society as a Freemason. I maintain high standards and expect the same from my Brothers. I want to maintain the standard of our Fraternity at the elite level. And I believe that we should guard the West Gate more diligently and turn away a questionable petitioner. No matter how you slice it, we should be more elitist.

 

[DavisB]

Of course there are men who are nothing but honorable that are not Masons. My stance is, and always will be, that we should only ever accept members from the best that society has to offer. the elite of that society in the sense that they are the best, not necessarily monetarily. Men who have proven that they are dedicated to improving themselves even more, as well as the world around them. I will always be very leary about accepting a man with a checkered past who claims to have changed. Freemasonry is about making good men better, not making men who may be alright now better.

Ergo, when it comes to Masonry, I will always be an elitist. It's not for everyone. And I love Freemasonry a great deal because it joins me with other men with the highest ideals.

That being said, every case must be investigated on it's own merits and the individual investigated based on the facts. But we must remember, when we accept the man into our Order, we also accept his past into our Order. And our detractors can and will use that against us. Sometimes we must make the difficult decisions for the good of the Fraternity as a whole.

I just hesitate when asked to judge the character of someone else. We all have checkered pasts one way or another and we have all exhibited conduct that would no be fitting of a MM at all, probably even after we joined the Fraternity.

I completely understand what you are saying about being selective and I agree that Masonry was never intended to be, and should never become something for every man. I just hesitate when it comes to the word Elitist. As has been stated by others, it just has a connotation I am not comfortable with. And while I do know in what way you mean it to be taken. I don't think I will ever be comfortable branding this Fraternity with the badge of elitism and telling everyone else that. I think if we paraded around in the public eye, calling ourselves elitist, it would only be detrimental to the public image of the Fraternity as a whole.

 

[Winter]

Beacon of Masonic Light: Is Masonry Elitist?

Let the public believe what they will. I think our forays into the domain of public perception and advertisement are just as detrimental. If we engage in Masonry correctly, we will continue to only attract the best, not the curious. Elitism with just criteria is not a bad thing.