So the WM said...

BukeyeJackson

ViMH Advisory Board
Hey I was just wondering. The aprons that we give to our brethern here have some pretty long strings. I can get them around me a few times and me not teeny.

I would be interested in the discussion Brother Max is talking about.
 

Winter

I've been here before
We're discussing the aprons that we use in Lodges that work under the English constitution and some Lodges in New England here in the US, as well as Emulation Lodges like mine. There is a picture of one of our aprons on the second page of this thread.
 

edwmax

Active Member
....

But the belts that secure the apron around the waist make sense that they are referred to as belts (which they are even in the catalogs) since those are specifically different than the cords and tassels on aprons that tie on.
The belt with it's quick snap is just a modern innovation of continence. The tassels on the front are the symbolic ends of the belt/tie-cord. ... But, knowing Freemasonry in about another 100 years, some enlighten Brother will be attaching his symbolic meaning to the BELT. ....hahah ...

The big point that clued me was the fact the tassels upon the front were required by the UGLE Code. There must have been a reason other than decoration.
 
G

Gary

Guest
I have nothing of importance to contribute to this discussion at the moment other than to say it is very interesting reading Brothers. I'm learning a little something today.

<Yiddish accent> Discuss amongst yourselves... :p
 

edwmax

Active Member
We're discussing the aprons that we use in Lodges that work under the English constitution and some Lodges in New England here in the US, as well as Emulation Lodges like mine. There is a picture of one of our aprons on the second page of this thread.
Yes, that is correct. But, the symbolism very much carries over to the US style plain white aprons with a tie-cord. .... Incidentally, in my GL (& I would believe most other GLs too), the instruction to the Candidate on how to wear his apron does not include proper & correct instructions on how to tie the Apron. ... Property tied, the Apron Cords will hang down the front left side of the Apron.
 
I have nothing of importance to contribute to this discussion at the moment other than to say it is very interesting reading Brothers. I'm learning a little something today.

<Yiddish accent> Discuss amongst yourselves... :p
Me too.... it is nice to see two educated Brothers share this info.....
 

edwmax

Active Member
Who's bible? :) Can you give a chapter verse?

Look in Numbers and Deuteronomy. ... I don't want to make it too easy; if i give it to you on a silvery platter, there would be no valve. ... It took me several months to get this; there was an 'aah moment' when i read the explanation of a little detail in regards to the 'tessellated or checkered' floor.
 

Winter

I've been here before
This is from Ars Quatuor Coronaturm. Transactions of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076:
The apron appears to have on it symbols or emblems as decorative features, e.g., the blue edged ribbon, the rosettes, the seven-chained tassels. Are these symbols or emblems ? Have they any worth apart from artistic forms or embellishments?

The extremists teach that they are symbols: indeed, they go much further and state that the actual form of the apron, and the form of its flap, and the position of the flap, are important in their symbolic content. Little, if any, credence need be given to such opinions or judgments. At the best the decorations on the apron are possibly emblematic, but what the emblems mean it is impossible to state accurately; e.g., it is said that the blue ribbon edging symbolises charity. It may, but charity is a common virtue of the Craft, and many aprons have different coloured edging. The three rosettes are said to represent the Three Degrees, but no scholar knows yet what their origin was. The symbolic origins of the tassels and their seven chains are also shrouded in mystery. It is far better to accept the probability that regalia-makers from 1830 onwards contrived a symmetrical design for the apron by placing the tassels with their ornamental chains on either side of the apron. Finally, the extremists will even make the "hook" (the circle) and the "clasp" (the serpent) symbols of tremendous and mystical ideas ; no better example of "wishful thinking" could be given. That these humble devices, so commonly used throughout the world to serve needs of fastening attire, should be tortured to yield such meanings is unjustified ; indeed, it may be described as fatuous.
 
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Gary

Guest
Look in Numbers and Deuteronomy. ... I don't want to make it too easy; if i give it to you on a silvery platter, there would be no valve. ... It took me several months to get this; there was an 'aah moment' when i read the explanation of a little detail in regards to the 'tessellated or checkered' floor.
It's funny how more learned Brothers share. Bro. Coach told me that he could give me a fish, but it's better to let me do my own fishing. He just showed me where to cast my fishing line. He's done that several times with great results actually.

I'm going to pull out my VSL tonight and see if I can't make the connections you speak of.
 

Winter

I've been here before
Look in Numbers and Deuteronomy. ... I don't want to make it too easy; if i give it to you on a silvery platter, there would be no valve. ... It took me several months to get this; there was an 'aah moment' when i read the explanation of a little detail in regards to the 'tessellated or checkered' floor.
If it's the tassels I'm thinking of, there are four of them there. So how does that translate to the two on the apron?
 

edwmax

Active Member
The four you refer to are symbolic of the 4 Virtues. This is item of symbolism lost in American lodges. In the Bible, the tassel has a different meaning and cross cultural meaning. You are on a hot trail.

What is the MOST IMPORTANT working tool of a Master Mason? ..(caps intended for emphasis) .... AAH! We don't have a lecture that describes such a tool. But, the clue & symbolism is there in one of our Degrees.
 

edwmax

Active Member
It's funny how more learned Brothers share. Bro. Coach told me that he could give me a fish, but it's better to let me do my own fishing. He just showed me where to cast my fishing line. He's done that several times with great results actually.

I'm going to pull out my VSL tonight and see if I can't make the connections you speak of.
I hope I haven't ruined it for you with the additional hints. So I think, I should give you guys a little time to look own your own. Tomorrow ...
 
G

Gary

Guest
I hope I haven't ruined it for you with the additional hints. So I think, I should give you guys a little time to look own your own. Tomorrow ...
Nah... I appreciate the hints. I'll give it a look, and hopefully I can contribute to the discussion.;)
 

Winter

I've been here before
I hope I haven't ruined it for you with the additional hints. So I think, I should give you guys a little time to look own your own. Tomorrow ...
Ruined it? Not at all. But as I am reading it in Hebrew, I am wondering if we are reading the same material.

Also, playing, "I know what you don't" is not the same as guiding and instructing. State the argument with references and continue the discussion. I'm not bashing you Brother, but if you have information that you believe we should have, then state it and give references.
 

BukeyeJackson

ViMH Advisory Board
I Love You Guys

All I have to do is throw a little bait and it goes a long way before I can read again.

Ok So the aprons given to the Brothers here are plain white, no symbols and no tassels excepts what's on the ends of the strings. And again they're long.

I see I'll still have much to learn!! MMMMM
 

edwmax

Active Member
Ruined it? Not at all. But as I am reading it in Hebrew, I am wondering if we are reading the same material.

Also, playing, "I know what you don't" is not the same as guiding and instructing. State the argument with references and continue the discussion. I'm not bashing you Brother, but if you have information that you believe we should have, then state it and give references.
I have no references, but myself. ... I have no intention of playing "I know something you don't" game. If you want to know, what I know, then you will have to do some 'fishing' (Coach's term). The hints i give above are the proofs to what I will finally tell.
 

Duncan1574

Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
I have no references, but myself. ... I have no intention of playing "I know something you don't" game. If you want to know, what I know, then you will have to do some 'fishing' (Coach's term). The hints i give above are the proofs to what will finally tell.
Brother Ed, Winter is reading the books in Hebrew, not an English translation, therefore the word or words will not be the same. For that matter the original texts were not divided into chapter and verse. What Winter is asking for will make his search possible. If you want to stretch this even further, how about Brothers who are not even from a Judea-christian background? Who possibly not even know the bible?
 

edwmax

Active Member
I Love You Guys

All I have to do is throw a little bait and it goes a long way before I can read again.

Ok So the aprons given to the Brothers here are plain white, no symbols and no tassels excepts what's on the ends of the strings. And again they're long.

I see I'll still have much to learn!! MMMMM
Correct .... Because the strings are functional to securing the Apron about one's person, Masons give this very little thought. ... The fact that the UGLE Code mandated (from about the mid 1800's ??) the tassels to be upon the front, shows there must be a symbolism associated with them; but What? .... As I stated, this looks like a forgotten symbolism within Freemasonry.

There is a paper stating the 'ribbons' of the tassel are emblematic of the the 2 columns; I have heard that once before from a Au Brother. ..This I don't buy as that paper did not give any foundation for such a statement. ... But 2 years ago, I found no references regarding the symbolism of the Tassels on an Apron other then they are required to be on the front.
 

edwmax

Active Member
Brother Ed, Winter is reading the books in Hebrew, not an English translation, therefore the word or words will not be the same. For that matter the original texts were not divided into chapter and verse. What Winter is asking for will make his search possible. If you want to stretch this even further, how about Brothers who are not even from a Judea-christian background? Who possibly not even know the bible?
There are online English Bibles with word searches. KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE - KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE
I keep a couple pegged in my bookmarks for quick searches.

It might be better if Winder read these in English, then cross reference to Hebrew. Our 'modern' Masonic Rituals were composed and written in English based upon translated Latin & Greek text of the Bible; and the King James Bible (translated abt 1611??).
 

Winter

I've been here before
I have no references, but myself. ... I have no intention of playing "I know something you don't" game. If you want to know, what I know, then you will have to do some 'fishing' (Coach's term). The hints i give above are the proofs to what will finally tell.
Hahahaha Sorry about that, Brother! The post was supposed to be tongue in cheek, expressing my innability to find the references you were hinting at. Didn't mean it to come out that way! lol
 
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