Nope.
EA Topic Transgendered people
- Thread starter Duncan1574
- Start date
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
For a redneck I am pretty open minded and really can care less about someone's sexual orientation or what have you so I will say NO , if I can not tell , I really wouldn't care .
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
My opinion may be clouded by the opposite situation. My daughter dated a person who wanted to transition to become a man. She was not allowed back into my home or near my daughter when we discovered that she had been stealing my diabetic syringes for her heroin habit. It kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.
I can see how that situation could cloud your opinion.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Wind, That sucks!
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
SO - if a man, by the usual methodologies used to identify the sex a person (visual, audible), approached your Lodge for membership, had the signatures on his petition, would you vote him down for being transgendered? ... being a man, free-born..... In my GL those are separate qualifiers.
For a Brother who is transitioning to be a sister, then it would for them to demit, as they are no longer a man.
For a Brother who is transitioning to be a sister, then it would for them to demit, as they are no longer a man.
Since we use the phrase, "By all outward appearances..." , that would appear to be a case of acceptance as a man if you followed that line of thinking.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
As has been pointed out before, for all I know my lodge already has transgendered men as members. I suppose what I don't know can't hurt me in this case.
If the person is in the process and is still biologically female, then I would be very concerned what the Senior Deacon would see and do when he receives the candidate into the lodge.
If the person is in the process and is still biologically female, then I would be very concerned what the Senior Deacon would see and do when he receives the candidate into the lodge.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Interesting point: then they are not truly 'a man'
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
From what I've gathered, it's pretty common for an woman who is transitioning to becoming a man to have a period where she will live and dress as a man but with no physical changes made. If, during this period, I as SD found a binding around breasts to keep them flat, I would be forced to call a halt to the ceremony and investigate by my Obligation.
This leads me to a further thought. Let's say a month later the surgery is performed and the person returns to the lodge. What are we to do? It's the same person.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
The thing that spouted this thread was a cable program on transgender issues. One of the people is a now-man and had so converted themselves as to be indistinguishable from a born-male. Up to having a functional penis. So I thinks to myself, self how do we are Freemasons with the Obligations that we have "deal" with this possibility?
To the point of binding things, there are some guys at the gym that should be wearing sports-bras
. During their trial period they are not truly a 'man' at that point in their translation, but in their hearts and minds they are male.
Squirrel: I receive you on the ... piercing your naked ... "DAMN, nice rack!"
To the point of binding things, there are some guys at the gym that should be wearing sports-bras
. During their trial period they are not truly a 'man' at that point in their translation, but in their hearts and minds they are male. Squirrel: I receive you on the ... piercing your naked ... "DAMN, nice rack!"
Winter
I've been here before
I have been watching this thread with much interest but waited to actually post for one simple reason. I wasn't sure what I thought abut the situation from a Masonic stance. From a secular and legal stance it is easy. They are human beings who deserve respect and kindness and equal protection and rights under the law. That's easy. That's just basic human decency. But our Order is based on religious principals. And many faiths are very intolerant of differences. So, as I do whenever I have a question about life that I do not know the answer to, I looked to the Rabbis.
For the full text of the Responsa I am quoting, you can go here: http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html I have pasted some of the pertinent paragraphs.
"Rabbi Waldenberg is a major authority in Jewish law. While Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was considered (and still is) the preeminant authority by most American Orthodox Jews, elsewhere, such as Israel, Rabbi Waldenberg is often considered to be of greater stature, particularly where medical issues are concerned."
"There are two responsa in question. The first, in Volume X, Part 25, Chapter 26, Section 6, is the end of a responsum dealing with transplants, particularly heart transplants. In this section, Rabbi Waldenberg sets out to deal with "other significant/organic alterations of the body, such as a person who changes from male to female, or vice versa." He mentions that such surgery is done in special cases, adding the comment, "(rare, of course)"."
"Important elements of this responsum are that a change of sex which results in the individual appearing mostly of a new gender actually changes that individual's gender in the eyes of Jewish law. And that this is obvious enough that it can end a marriage without either death or divorce, which is an extreme position in Jewish law. Anyone of lesser stature than Rabbi Waldenberg would be unlikely to get away with such an opinion."
"since the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law."
"Rabbi Waldenberg recognized psychological factors as real ones. He recognized psychological trauma as a danger to a woman which could be grounds for permitting abortion even when no physical danger existed. In light of this, and in light of the terribly high rate of clinical depression and/or suicide among transexuals, a case might be made for permitting hormone therapy and surgery in certain cases. This is conjecture, however, and I don't believe it has been addressed in those terms and in context of Rabbi Waldenberg's determination that surgery actually results in a gender change."
Rabbi Waldenberg's views are very highly respected even if there are sometimes disagreed with. After reading his responsum on the matter, I think I would be much more inclined now to evaluate a transgender using the same criteria as a candidate who was born a man. Obviously, a Brother who underwent SRS to become a woman should leave our Order as it would not be proper for them to remain.
For the full text of the Responsa I am quoting, you can go here: http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html I have pasted some of the pertinent paragraphs.
"Rabbi Waldenberg is a major authority in Jewish law. While Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was considered (and still is) the preeminant authority by most American Orthodox Jews, elsewhere, such as Israel, Rabbi Waldenberg is often considered to be of greater stature, particularly where medical issues are concerned."
"There are two responsa in question. The first, in Volume X, Part 25, Chapter 26, Section 6, is the end of a responsum dealing with transplants, particularly heart transplants. In this section, Rabbi Waldenberg sets out to deal with "other significant/organic alterations of the body, such as a person who changes from male to female, or vice versa." He mentions that such surgery is done in special cases, adding the comment, "(rare, of course)"."
"Important elements of this responsum are that a change of sex which results in the individual appearing mostly of a new gender actually changes that individual's gender in the eyes of Jewish law. And that this is obvious enough that it can end a marriage without either death or divorce, which is an extreme position in Jewish law. Anyone of lesser stature than Rabbi Waldenberg would be unlikely to get away with such an opinion."
"since the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law."
"Rabbi Waldenberg recognized psychological factors as real ones. He recognized psychological trauma as a danger to a woman which could be grounds for permitting abortion even when no physical danger existed. In light of this, and in light of the terribly high rate of clinical depression and/or suicide among transexuals, a case might be made for permitting hormone therapy and surgery in certain cases. This is conjecture, however, and I don't believe it has been addressed in those terms and in context of Rabbi Waldenberg's determination that surgery actually results in a gender change."
Rabbi Waldenberg's views are very highly respected even if there are sometimes disagreed with. After reading his responsum on the matter, I think I would be much more inclined now to evaluate a transgender using the same criteria as a candidate who was born a man. Obviously, a Brother who underwent SRS to become a woman should leave our Order as it would not be proper for them to remain.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Gotta love a good Rabbi quotation. Thanks Brother Winter for the enlightenment.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
Well, it seems the consensus is that if the transformation is complete and the person is physically (although not necessarily genetically) male, he is eligible to petition and satisfying all other requirements can become a Mason. I was chatting about this with my daughter, she reminded me that even genetics is not clearly a determination of gender any more as some men have three chromosomes in a XXY configuration.
I don't ask my brothers if they are Gay. I don't ask them if they are Transgendered. When I invite people to a lodge event, I make it a point to say "your loved ones" to not exclude anybody. I'm not about to start asking about surgical status during IC meetings. This is another part of my ashlar that needs smoothing.
I don't ask my brothers if they are Gay. I don't ask them if they are Transgendered. When I invite people to a lodge event, I make it a point to say "your loved ones" to not exclude anybody. I'm not about to start asking about surgical status during IC meetings. This is another part of my ashlar that needs smoothing.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
Brother Windrider , You have one smart Daughter , you must be a very proud Father .
I do not ask a any brother or petitioner if he is Gay , It is NONE of my business . And transgendered , that would not even come up .
I do not ask a any brother or petitioner if he is Gay , It is NONE of my business . And transgendered , that would not even come up .