Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Keep nudging, keep pressing.
Remind Brothers that we should not just be members, but Masons!
...and the fight isn't over once recognition is made!
S&F
Arguments against recognizing PHA Masonry-They'll take over!
- Thread starter Bob Franks
- Start date
Remind Brothers that we should not just be members, but Masons!
...and the fight isn't over once recognition is made!
S&F
Terry S
New Member
I live in the "deep" south so Im sure anything i say about this matter will be met with a "racist" label. So be it. Its not true, but people are entitled to their opinions.
I have many PH friends. We recognize each other and even hold masonic discussion with a mutual respect for whats held as sacred by our respective orders. I have known many of these men for well over a decade. Ive worked with these men, attended sporting events, shared family dinners with them and invited them to family functions. I even call one of these men my lifes mentor and have an enormous amount of respect for him. While i would like for them to be able to visit my lodge, i have no desire for them to join. The feeling is mutual as any attempt by a regular Mason here to join or attend a PH Lodge would be met by quite a bit of laughter.
PH and Regular Lodges have differences in the way they do things. While we respect their way and they respect our way, niether group wants to conform to the other so both sides are happy and can coexist without the need for merging or 'recognition'.
It seems that in Georgia there are only a few brothers that want a full merger but they are definitely a minority. We do have 1 regular lodge with a few black members who are officers in the lodge, so maybe there will be a change soon.
I have many PH friends. We recognize each other and even hold masonic discussion with a mutual respect for whats held as sacred by our respective orders. I have known many of these men for well over a decade. Ive worked with these men, attended sporting events, shared family dinners with them and invited them to family functions. I even call one of these men my lifes mentor and have an enormous amount of respect for him. While i would like for them to be able to visit my lodge, i have no desire for them to join. The feeling is mutual as any attempt by a regular Mason here to join or attend a PH Lodge would be met by quite a bit of laughter.
PH and Regular Lodges have differences in the way they do things. While we respect their way and they respect our way, niether group wants to conform to the other so both sides are happy and can coexist without the need for merging or 'recognition'.
It seems that in Georgia there are only a few brothers that want a full merger but they are definitely a minority. We do have 1 regular lodge with a few black members who are officers in the lodge, so maybe there will be a change soon.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
I think the GLs need to recognize each other for PH and UGLE Masons to be able to visit and sit in lodge with each other. So it sounds to me like recognition and amity between the UGLE and PH GLs is the right thing for your jurisdiction. Nobody has to join anybody else's lodge unless they want to.
I hung out with a PH Mason for a while in NJ last month and found the differences in traditions to be fascinating. He is a great guy and a very knowledgeable Mason. Since my GL recognizes both NJ GL and NJ PH GL as regular, we could sit in lodge with each other without issues although I think I would be hard pressed to "work" my way into his lodge
mdonahue66
Mike
In the early part of your statement, you say you recognize each other and even hold masonic discussion. Towards the end you say there is no need for recognition. Look closely at your Master Mason's obligation, because I think there's a strong possibility you are breaking it by having masonic discussion with what your GL would define as "clandestine" masons. The fact that you want to have masonic discussion should be reason to support recognition. Please don't take these statements as criticism, they are meant with all due respect.
Mike
Terry S
New Member
I thought about that after i typed it, but hoped it wouldnt be taken that way, thats why i threw in the comment about "respect for whats sacred."
I'll define myself so as not to incur any more confusion.
By Masonic Discussion i simply mean we talk about what degrees we are pursuing, fundraisers and that sort of thing. We dont sit around and discuss lodge meeting discussions and other private matters or secrets within the lodge.
I'll define myself so as not to incur any more confusion.
By Masonic Discussion i simply mean we talk about what degrees we are pursuing, fundraisers and that sort of thing. We dont sit around and discuss lodge meeting discussions and other private matters or secrets within the lodge.
mdonahue66
Mike
Got it. I should have caught it the way you stated it. Some days I'm a little dumber than others
mdonahue66
Mike
Yeah. Tone and inflection are tough on the internet when all you have are some silly smiley faces. I wrote that post, and then thought, man, Terry S is going to think I'm some kind of a-h*le, but the intent was not to be critical, just to make sure I understood what you were saying. Also, for me, Prince Hall recognition is not something I ever have to deal with in real life, only on the internet, so maybe I butt in more on these discussions than I probably should.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Merger???
Why is it that when Recognition is discussed,the Mainstream (i.e., white) Mason start talking against merger.
Let's see, how many time have I heard a PH Mason, either officer or rank-&-file, suggest merger?
Not once. Never. Not ever. Still waiting to hear it.
Get my drift? This is a STRAW HORSE set up by Masons against recognition so they will have something to attack in Recognition. It does not exist.
I heard the same thing today from a South Carolina Mason.
I'm in North Carolina. Though we have not fully implemented the recognition thing, we passed it in GL 2.5 years ago.
We have about 46,000 Masons in the AF&AM GL.
They have 14,700 Masons in the F&AM (PHA) GL.
They have a proud, dignified,and old tradition, which would be largely lost in a merger. They wish to maintain their traditions and customs which are different from ours by remaining distinct.
When I visit foreign GLs, i.e., SC, IN, KY, WI, MI, Ireland, and England, I observe how they do Masonry a little different from my Grand Lodge...but it's still Masonry. I have enjoyed seeing how Prince Hall Masons practice their craft a little differently from my lodge, but it is still Masonry!
S&F
Why is it that when Recognition is discussed,the Mainstream (i.e., white) Mason start talking against merger.
Let's see, how many time have I heard a PH Mason, either officer or rank-&-file, suggest merger?
Not once. Never. Not ever. Still waiting to hear it.
Get my drift? This is a STRAW HORSE set up by Masons against recognition so they will have something to attack in Recognition. It does not exist.
I heard the same thing today from a South Carolina Mason.
I'm in North Carolina. Though we have not fully implemented the recognition thing, we passed it in GL 2.5 years ago.
We have about 46,000 Masons in the AF&AM GL.
They have 14,700 Masons in the F&AM (PHA) GL.
They have a proud, dignified,and old tradition, which would be largely lost in a merger. They wish to maintain their traditions and customs which are different from ours by remaining distinct.
When I visit foreign GLs, i.e., SC, IN, KY, WI, MI, Ireland, and England, I observe how they do Masonry a little different from my Grand Lodge...but it's still Masonry. I have enjoyed seeing how Prince Hall Masons practice their craft a little differently from my lodge, but it is still Masonry!
S&F
Terry S
New Member
Bro. Franks... in the 5th post of this thread you mentioned merger and you were the first person to do so that i can find. While reading the entire thread it morphed into some what of a theme so thats what i responded to. I have no agenda and im simply stating my opinion on a open forum question that asked for opinions.
Im not against recognition. But a lot of my local brethren feel, as your headline suggests, that recognition is the first step towards integration and most of them are against that. They have their reasons, be it bigotry or ignorance or simply a feeling of comfort being around ones own race. Whatever it may be, its the feeling of the majority down here that they dont want it and i for one am not a person that likes to force his opinion on others.
Im not against recognition. But a lot of my local brethren feel, as your headline suggests, that recognition is the first step towards integration and most of them are against that. They have their reasons, be it bigotry or ignorance or simply a feeling of comfort being around ones own race. Whatever it may be, its the feeling of the majority down here that they dont want it and i for one am not a person that likes to force his opinion on others.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Brother Terry-
Indeed in THIS forum, on THIS thread, I mentioned merger first. It is not because I am condoning it or forwarding the idea of merging the two systems, but that I have heard it over and over.
Just two evenings ago, at the Alvin York Shoot in TN, I was conversing with a Brother from one of the non-recognition states, and when the conversation turned to differences between our two nearby states, the subject of recognition came up, as North Carolina passed recognition 2.5 years ago. When I asked him what his feelings were about the subject, he said, "We will never merge with the Prince Hall lodges!"
When I protested that we did not merge, nor had any of the states so far voting for recognition had merged, he informed me that it was probably the next step.
Where does this come from?
My whole thrust, in this series of threads, had been to bring the arguments out into the open to see how they fare in the light of open discussion. YES, I mentioned merger! It needs to be discussed as any other argument against recognition should be. I continue to stand on the position that it is a straw horse.
Recognition does not necessarily lead to merger, any more than applying for a permit to purchase a handgun (as we in NC are required to do) is the first step to murder.
S&F
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
Most US Jurisdictions Recognize and have Amity with PHA GLs. I know of none even thinking about merging. They will, of course, take over if we were to merge
NZ-Freemason
Member
Greetings, brethren all,
As an "outsider" to this issue I have been following this thread very closely and to be honest I have been somewhat cautious to post anything so please don't take offense at my attempts to understand the issues.
May I ask what the issue is? I admit I know next to nothing about the PHA Lodges but what I do know (at least I think i know) is that the original PH Lodge was recognized by UGLE and deemed regular, is that the case? I understand that Prince Hall and his 14 or so fellows were initiated by an Irish lodge is that correct? I apologize, and it may be because you all inherently know the facts(and therefore don't need to write them here in this forum) but I don't see too many facts coming through in is thread, just opinion and anecdotal evidence supporting one way or another. Please bare in mind my ignorance, and I apologize if I have caused offense.
As an "outsider" to this issue I have been following this thread very closely and to be honest I have been somewhat cautious to post anything so please don't take offense at my attempts to understand the issues.
May I ask what the issue is? I admit I know next to nothing about the PHA Lodges but what I do know (at least I think i know) is that the original PH Lodge was recognized by UGLE and deemed regular, is that the case? I understand that Prince Hall and his 14 or so fellows were initiated by an Irish lodge is that correct? I apologize, and it may be because you all inherently know the facts(and therefore don't need to write them here in this forum) but I don't see too many facts coming through in is thread, just opinion and anecdotal evidence supporting one way or another. Please bare in mind my ignorance, and I apologize if I have caused offense.
mdonahue66
Mike
Oh, boy.....I might just tip the apple cart if I try to tackle this one. I think I'll leave it for Bob or someone else who has a little more tact.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
The way I've heard the history, they were indeed Raised by the Irish Regiment of Foot, which at the start of the (our) Revolution, was moved out of the area of Boston by the Royal Army. They were left with a charter that they could "meet and march in parades," but not to bring in new Masons. After the Revolution, when that state's Grand Lodge was being formed, it declined to respond to their request to join as a lodge (African Lodge #457), supposedly due to the racism endemic of the day. They determined to remain Masons and formed their own Grand Lodge, eventually naming it after their first Grand Master, freeman and patriot, leatherworker Prince Hall.
Today, only about 9 US states do not recognize the PHA Grand Lodges, but there is not always harmony in the jurisdictions which have voted for recognition.
The issue is that there are members who are ready to demand that a visitor from a PHA lodge be denied Masonic visitation, even if they have never met the Brother.
Does that answer your query?
(please read the very last line of my sig.)
S&F
G
Gary
Guest
DING DING DING!!!! Give the brother a prize! You nailed it. If you ask me, the whole political posturing thing is stupid. We are supposed to be brethren.
NZ-Freemason
Member
Hmmm, interesting.
I don't profess to know this issue inside out, or even have a slight idea of the intricies that are no doubt present on both sides of the issue but in my ignorant opinion if Prince Hall Freemasonry is considered regular by the UGLE then that would be good enough for me. Lets just say that I am glad that we don't have this issue here in New Zealand!
I don't profess to know this issue inside out, or even have a slight idea of the intricies that are no doubt present on both sides of the issue but in my ignorant opinion if Prince Hall Freemasonry is considered regular by the UGLE then that would be good enough for me. Lets just say that I am glad that we don't have this issue here in New Zealand!
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
NZ-Freemason
Member
Very good question brother. As you may or may not know, I am Maori, a native of New Zealand. I have never come across any hostility from any other brethren here in New Zealand. In fact when I was initiated the Maori Masonic Group all attended and they filled all the officers chairs (except in the East) for my initiation. A part of the ritual was also translated into Maori especially for my initiation. They also used several Maori customs in open lodge, including traditional speech making (whaikorero) and action songs. It was very special indeed. In refectory following the ceremony the visitors charge was done by one of the Maori brethren in Maori, and as the candidate I responded to the toast in Maori as well. I think that gives a fairly good idea about the dynamic between Maori and non-Maori Freemasons here in New Zealand. It is rather good considering the first Maori Freemason was only initiated in 1908...