Is Freemasonry a Religion?

[Gary]

Lax67 wants to defend FM. He was merely asking for support in doing so, that's all. or at least, that is what I understood.

That was my first impression, but the conversation wasn't all that clear to me.

I was referring to the question of is masonry a religion.....

Besides....I have the market cornered on the questioning for the sake of debate....JK....I dont mind discussing religions connection to masonry but I just wanted to get my not-so semi humble thoughts on the table as to if masonry is a religion....

Yeah, we can always count on you to put in your 2 cents.

If that is the case, then my reply still works.... if he is struggling in his own travels then maybe he does need to step away (not quit) and figure some things out...

Meh... I'm not convinced that he is struggling with anything. If I didn't look at who had posted the debate, I would have thought you had posted it.

Again, it was a dubious post to begin with. I have to give him credit though. He isn't afraid to jump in with both feet.

 

[removed12612]

Are you saying I like to push the envelop just a bit ..... I do need to give him mad props for a little nudging and pushing .....thought provocation is not always a bad thing is it??

 

[Gary]

Are you saying I like to push the envelop just a bit ..... I do need to give him mad props for a little nudging and pushing .....thought provocation is not always a bad thing is it??

Yup I'm saying you push the envelope.... A LOT.

I do enjoy watching the situations you get yourself into. It often has a positive outcome.

 

[removed12612]

<--------------- this guy doesnt just walk in lock step with everything just because someone says so.....I believe not only did Glenn Beck but Thomas Jefferson said to question with boldness

 

[Gary]

Question with boldness yes... But don't put Beck on the same platform as Jefferson. Beck stole the quote for his own agenda, not for it's originality.

 

[removed12612]

Question with boldness yes... But don't put Beck on the same platform as Jefferson. Beck stole the quote for his own agenda, not for it's originality.

He did give proper credit for the words and work he used...... kinda like what Ill. Brother Art DeHoyo did for Albert in M&D....

 

[Gary]

He did give proper credit for the words and work he used...... kinda like what Ill. Brother Art DeHoyo did for Albert in M&D....

Not even in the same ball park, but I digress. You know I'm just pushing your buttons right?

 

[Lax67]

Brethren,

Yes, I am struggling with these issues. I am also attempting to defend FM, but in a logical way that refutes the various accusations I listed in my original and subsequent posts. I am dissatisfied with many of the typical answers given to the questions of salvation, religion, sacraments, vestments, liturgy and other, in my opinion, relevant, fair and legitimate questions that should be addressed. My intention was to engage in some debate and extract arguments that use sound logic to refute some of these accusations. I'm not talking about the tin-hat-wearing wackadoos talking about satanism. I'm talking about the Papal bulls from "the church", the edicts from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and so forth.

Today I wanted to talk about whether Freemasonry was a religion or not. I grabbed a definition from a website, explained the rationale behind its use and proceeded to test Freemasonry against those metrics. See original post.

Winter came on and offered his definition of religion and gave answers. He stated that because FM did not have a theistic dogma and that it didn't offer a path to salvation, FM was therefore not a religion.

If you go back and read my posts after that one, I conceded on the question of "Is Freemasonry a Religion" I did so because it was a sound argument and I agreed with it. I then jumped all over the question of salvation. I do not agree with Winter's comments about FM not providing a path to salvation, I think it does and gave very logical arguments to his points. Apparently that has caused quite some consternation and created some ad hominem attacks that are off topic. Disagreeing with a brother is not a bad thing, guys.

So, now, Bro. Coach has raised an interesting question that focuses on what's been sifted and winnowed.

 

[Gary]

Me thinks you protesteth too much. Freemasonry isn't a Religion, but rather a supplement to it. By following it's principles it strengthens our relationship with Deity. It does not provide it's own religious figure for worship.

I do not see how Freemasonry in of itself offers any sort of salvation.

 

[removed12612]

Not even in the same ball park, but I digress. You know I'm just pushing your buttons right?

Of course..... and I am your....

 

[CoachN]

...So, now, Bro. Coach has raised an interesting question that focuses on what's been sifted and winnowed.

and???????

 

[Lax67]

I'm not quite sure what you meant by covert assumptions, but you are also asking how I define salvation and what salvation is doing, so I'll address those two questions.

Since the posting key says that my path to salvation is left to my own choice, I would say that salvation is deliverance. Deliverance from consequences. For me, as a Lutheran, it is deliverance from sin. The path is through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

What is it doing? Well, I’ll pull from Winter’s post on page 1 of this thread, “…it relates to the physical world combined with a means for one to transcend from this world to the other.” Now to be fair to Winter he went on to say that Freemasonry does not have a means for a person to get to the other. But that’s where I disagree with him.

Why do I disagree with that, well as I stated above the ritual states that purity of conduct is essentially necessary to gaining admission to heaven.

Deliverance (gaining admission/transcendance) from this world to the other (celestial lodge/heaven) is a consequence of pure conduct.

Alright, coach, that’s my last batch of cookies. Since you enjoy sharing light that you have learned, by all means, share away.

 

[Gary]

<snip>

Now to be fair to Winter he went on to say that Freemasonry does not have a means for a person to get to the other. But that’s where I disagree with him.

Why do I disagree with that, well as I stated above the ritual states that purity of conduct is essentially necessary to gaining admission to heaven.

Deliverance (gaining admission/transcendance) from this world to the other (celestial lodge/heaven) is a consequence of pure conduct.

Alright, coach, that’s my last batch of cookies. Since you enjoy sharing light that you have learned, by all means, share away.

But doesn't purity of conduct just emulate what religion dictates we do? How is that the only gate to the celestial Lodge? It certainly isn't the only requirement for entry.

 

[Lax67]

But doesn't purity of conduct just emulate what religion dictates we do? How is that the only gate to the celestial Lodge? It certainly isn't the only requirement for entry.

That’s a great question and the answer to which is what I've been trying to get at with my arguments. FM tells me to choose my own religion and find a path to salvation . Ok, I've done that. I'm a Lutheran which means I get to heaven by grace of God and believing in Jesus as my savior. Salvation, which I'm charged to find on my own, is through faith alone, for me.

But then FM tells me that gaining admission to heaven isn't accomplished by my choice in path to salvation but rather by purity of conduct. In fact, it states that it is “essentially necessary”

The posting key does not put the ritual into context, if flat out contradicts it! So how do I reconcile that contradiction? Again, to ask this question shouldn’t result in people stirring up a bunch of silly assumptions and accusations. It’s a relevant question.

Is it the only requirement for entry? Well no, for another brother coming from a different religious tradition, none of this might not get on his radar, that’s why I also wondered above if this is just an issue for a Lutheran Mason.

 

[Gary]

<snip>
But then FM tells me that gaining admission to heaven isn't accomplished by my choice in path to salvation but rather by purity of conduct. In fact, it states that it is “essentially necessary”

The posting key does not put the ritual into context, if flat out contradicts it! So how do I reconcile that contradiction? Again, to ask this question shouldn’t result in people stirring up a bunch of silly assumptions and accusations. It’s a relevant question.

Is it the only requirement for entry? Well no, for another brother coming from a different religious tradition, none of this might not get on his radar, that’s why I also wondered above if this is just an issue for a Lutheran Mason.

Masonry neither usurps the place of, nor apes religion. M&D 26:4

I believe that you may be misunderstanding what the ritual is saying.

I interpret that as saying that your 'particular' religion doesn't matter. You could be Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, whatever... Regardless of your path, purity of conduct is the common thread along with your religious faith.

It doesn't mean that purity of conduct is all that is required.

 

[removed12612]

Masonry neither usurps the place of, nor apes religion. M&D 26:4

I believe that you may be misunderstanding what the ritual is saying.

I interpret that as saying that your 'particular' religion doesn't matter. You could be Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, whatever... Regardless of your path, purity of conduct is the common thread along with your religious faith.

It doesn't mean that purity of conduct is all that is required.

There are many, many, many good and pure people that have no interest in salvation......
Salvation is a personal understanding within their own religious dogma.... and cant be reached or held back from through masonry....

 

[BukeyeJackson]

Purity is an essential theme in all religions. Our ritual even states Masonry is not a religion nor a substitue for it and that looking to the Bible is the way for answers.

I believe that as a Masons I've learned to use symbols as a means to perfect myself. I did this before hand to, now I know it. I did it every time I saw a cross or a ying-yang.

If Masonry wasn't interwoven with religion to make our obligations binding... well that's another thread.

 

[Gary]

Those are some very good responses. I hope that brings some clarity to the answer we are trying to give you.

If there is one thing I've learned about ritual. It is steeped in allegory, and what may seem a literal definition isn't always what it seems. Sometimes you have to look beyond the veil to get the point of the message.

 

[Winter]

I still do not know how you get that Freemasonry is a valid path to salvation (regardless of how you define it) from the line you quote from ritual.

While much of the symbolism in Freemasonry is open to the interpretation of the individual Brother, some things are not. And a Brother who believes that Freemasonry is a valid path to G-d alone without the VSL of his faith is wrong. By believing that it is, you risk giving an incorrect impression to the uninitiated that Freemasonry can be a substitute for religion, creating even more problems for Brothers and the Craft as a whole.

Debate the religious symbolism in Freemasonry.

Debate the origins of religious practices used in our rituals.

Debate the clerical aspects of our garments.

Debate the connection to other religious Orders.

But there is no debate to be had no matter how you spin the matter that Freemasonry is in any way shape or form a religion. To do otherwise will only provide fuel for our detractors in established religions to use against us.

If you do actually believe that Freemasonry is a religion or that membership in our fraternity offers a path to heaven then you are wrong and should seek the council of Brothers in your Lodge or Grand Lodge to help you correct this improper view.

Please take this admonition as it is intended as an attempt to help you correct an incorrect view of the Craft that has the potential to be very detrimental to other Brothers. The correct view on this matter should have been established prior to your first degree.

 

[Duncan1574]

No, religions segregate people into two groups: those who are in and those who are out. The in(side) group are those that follow the edicts of that religion those who don't are out(side).
Freemasonry states a belief in a singular Deity and excludes no one other than atheists and polytheists.