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Just wondering if anyone would join a masonic group that had connections to irregular, non recognized or even clandestine lodges.....
Masonic affiliations
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BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
I would say no, I am interested in what organizations there are like this.
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I know this might not set well with everyone but I will throw it out:
Not saying that those involved with the Widows Sons are doing wrong but the Widows Sons as a group collectively does allow some in that are considered not regular, clandestine or not allowed to have masonic relations with.... two example are the Widows Sons does have PHA members as well in the international affiliation of the group, they do allow co-masonry members as well as other so called masons that do not meet the standards main stream masonry has set for recognition or to be considered regular.....
I have no beef with the Widows Sons...... just interested in varying points of view
Not saying that those involved with the Widows Sons are doing wrong but the Widows Sons as a group collectively does allow some in that are considered not regular, clandestine or not allowed to have masonic relations with.... two example are the Widows Sons does have PHA members as well in the international affiliation of the group, they do allow co-masonry members as well as other so called masons that do not meet the standards main stream masonry has set for recognition or to be considered regular.....
I have no beef with the Widows Sons...... just interested in varying points of view
They are the group that came to mind when I read the question.
BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
They let the women join so that they can have family type functions. I was told.
Winter
I've been here before
First off, lets get some accurate information out there instead of the incorrect info we have in this thread so far. Not harshing on anyone here, just sayin.
Issue one: Women/Co-Masons: The Widows Sons does NOT allow women, co-Masons, or other clandestine organizations that claim to be Masons to join under any circumstances.
It is true, that when France was given a Charter by the WS in England to form WS France that someone screwed up, Big time. Either they didn't know what the Masons in France intended or didn't do their homework. But shortly after they were formed, the WS France started patching women. A huge no no. This matter is being dealt with and it will hopefully never happen again.
Issue two: PHA members: This is another hot topic with a Masonic group that is international and allows both MS and PHA members. To many jurisdictions PHA are as regular as I am. To some, PHA are a clandestine organization. The WS allows members who are PHA in jurisdictions where they are considered regular and does not in those that don't. If you believe that this makes the WS clandestine because they maintain fraternal relations with PHA then that is your choice. You must follow the ruling of your GL.
But if the WS are wrong for allowing PHA, doesn't that make all of the states that recognize PHA not regular if your state doesn't? Just curious.
This is always going to be an issue with PHA. And I'm not trying to tell anyone they have to recognize PHA. But the WS, and many other Masonic orgs, admit PHA in those jurisdictions where they are regular. This practice is always going to create a sticky-wicket when state lines are crossed, but it doesn't affect the regularity of those orgs.
In summary, The WS only admits members from Grand Lodges recognized as being regular and in good standing. This includes PHA in those jurisdictions that allow it. Th WS does not have women members.
Issue one: Women/Co-Masons: The Widows Sons does NOT allow women, co-Masons, or other clandestine organizations that claim to be Masons to join under any circumstances.
It is true, that when France was given a Charter by the WS in England to form WS France that someone screwed up, Big time. Either they didn't know what the Masons in France intended or didn't do their homework. But shortly after they were formed, the WS France started patching women. A huge no no. This matter is being dealt with and it will hopefully never happen again.
Issue two: PHA members: This is another hot topic with a Masonic group that is international and allows both MS and PHA members. To many jurisdictions PHA are as regular as I am. To some, PHA are a clandestine organization. The WS allows members who are PHA in jurisdictions where they are considered regular and does not in those that don't. If you believe that this makes the WS clandestine because they maintain fraternal relations with PHA then that is your choice. You must follow the ruling of your GL.
But if the WS are wrong for allowing PHA, doesn't that make all of the states that recognize PHA not regular if your state doesn't? Just curious.
This is always going to be an issue with PHA. And I'm not trying to tell anyone they have to recognize PHA. But the WS, and many other Masonic orgs, admit PHA in those jurisdictions where they are regular. This practice is always going to create a sticky-wicket when state lines are crossed, but it doesn't affect the regularity of those orgs.
In summary, The WS only admits members from Grand Lodges recognized as being regular and in good standing. This includes PHA in those jurisdictions that allow it. Th WS does not have women members.
removed12612
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Winter...with all due respect you contradicted yourself in issue one.... you said they do NOT allow any of those groups but then you said that a AUTHORIZED WS group did patch women..... So, it WAS done regardless if it was correct so to be 100% technical, the WS DOES have women masons in the group...... regardless of what they plan to do, it WAS done...
Let me ask this..... if the WS had a rally and those women patched in were there and you as well....would you leave or renounce you WS membership???If they dont remove the women from the WS in Europe, will you leave the group....? As for the PHA membership.... lets say they had a WS rally in FL and some PHA WS showed....would you attend???
I am not bashing the WS, like I said, I have no beef with them and what/who they allow in because I dont consider them an apendant body of masonry..... they are more like a group of mc riders that are masons...
Winter
I've been here before
To clarify, the WS does not allow the patching of women as full members. But you are correct. It was done. But this does not invalidate the whole organization because a mistake was made. This issue has caused much grief with members leaving over it. Unfortunately, I do not have the latest information at this time on the current status. The last I had heard was that the group that gave them their charter was going to deal with it.
That it was done, illegally or not, doesn't invalidate the whole organization any more than if a cowen, poltroon or other unworthy finds his way into membership in a Regular Lodge. I needs to be dealt with swiftly and severely though, I agree.
Should the WS in Florida have a rally where PHA are in attendance I would happily go since I am not, at this time, a Florida Mason. My Lodge membership is in Wisconsin which happily enjoys fraternal relations with PHA. But I I know what you meant.
This is something I have already been seeking guidance on. As a Wisc. Mason I recognize PHA. But what happens should I seek dual membership in a Florida Lodge that does not? Must I cease my relations with PHA Brothers? It places me in an awkward position and the outcome of my inquiries will likely determine whether I seek plural membership in a FL Lodge or not.
Some further clarification, the WS as a whole are not, nor seek to be, an appendant body. It is a riding association that has a restricted membership to Master Masons in good standing. It is also not an MC or "club" in order to remain separated from the potentially nasty club politics that exist.
That it was done, illegally or not, doesn't invalidate the whole organization any more than if a cowen, poltroon or other unworthy finds his way into membership in a Regular Lodge. I needs to be dealt with swiftly and severely though, I agree.
Should the WS in Florida have a rally where PHA are in attendance I would happily go since I am not, at this time, a Florida Mason. My Lodge membership is in Wisconsin which happily enjoys fraternal relations with PHA. But I I know what you meant.
This is something I have already been seeking guidance on. As a Wisc. Mason I recognize PHA. But what happens should I seek dual membership in a Florida Lodge that does not? Must I cease my relations with PHA Brothers? It places me in an awkward position and the outcome of my inquiries will likely determine whether I seek plural membership in a FL Lodge or not.
Some further clarification, the WS as a whole are not, nor seek to be, an appendant body. It is a riding association that has a restricted membership to Master Masons in good standing. It is also not an MC or "club" in order to remain separated from the potentially nasty club politics that exist.
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I do not mean to invalidate them WS...I know many members and would join myself if I had a MC.... I do know that the general intent of the WS is all that is regular in masonry including PHA... I did not mean to sound attacking of the WS, unfortunately tone of the question is lost in writing.......I was just asking because many times have I read Brothers say they can not have any masonic relations with lets say PHA Brothers but they will belong to the same group such as the WS that does have PHA members...I know that the WS is not an "Official" masonic body but they do fly masonic emblems and the lay person or even some Brothers do not know the WS arent a masonic body.
I just wonder how it would go down if the WS had a national rally..... some Brothers can converse masonically but others cant....it would be an odd gathering
I just wonder how it would go down if the WS had a national rally..... some Brothers can converse masonically but others cant....it would be an odd gathering
Winter
I've been here before
I know you weren't attacking anyone, and I wasn't trying to be heated either. It's the medium we work with here.
The WS do have a yearly rally attended by Brothers from around the world. It all works out somehow. lol
As for the France issue, I believe I have stated previously in another thread that I will renounce my membership in the WS if that issue is not resolved satisfactorily. We'll see.
The WS do have a yearly rally attended by Brothers from around the world. It all works out somehow. lol
As for the France issue, I believe I have stated previously in another thread that I will renounce my membership in the WS if that issue is not resolved satisfactorily. We'll see.
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Bro... I do agree that the medium does often mess up the message.
And, I know that you would be one to hand in your patch first if the WS dont get things fixed.... I doubt you give much wiggle room on topics of masonry and what is right and wrong.
And, I know that you would be one to hand in your patch first if the WS dont get things fixed.... I doubt you give much wiggle room on topics of masonry and what is right and wrong.
But how much Masonic discussion is there in a WS rally? They arent conferring degrees, or doing Lodge stuff, Just riding as a group. If you worked in a business that had a PHA member working under the same roof. and your GL doesnt recognze PHA...does that mean you should quit your job? NO. Granted I dont know what WS does yet, and I'm researching as I want to join as soon as I buy a bike. But to what limit does non-regular/non affiliated company go?
BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
I apologize for presenting my misinformed knowledge.
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On the contrary, some WS chapters do have degree teams and do "masonic" stuff while they are together....NOT ALL but some do.... the issue some have is that they do appear to the profane and some Brothers that dont know any different to be a bona fide masonic organization because of the masonic symbols used by some WS chapters....This is not like work, this is a voluntary group and these Brothers socialize freely and someone might misunderstand the gathering where some MS and PHA masons are at to be a masonic meeting and it could get a Brother in trouble..... sadly some may try to get another introuble for stupid reasons... I say as long as you arent discussing the secrets then it doesnt matter if they are regular, irregular or whatever in a social function....
As far as joining, simplest thing would be to findout if any WS chapters are in your area and meet them... you probably will find you already know some...
If I were to guess, I bet most people who are in states that don't recognize PHA would simply follow the "don't ask, don't tell"I know you weren't attacking anyone, and I wasn't trying to be heated either. It's the medium we work with here.
The WS do have a yearly rally attended by Brothers from around the world. It all works out somehow. lol
As for the France issue, I believe I have stated previously in another thread that I will renounce my membership in the WS if that issue is not resolved satisfactorily. We'll see.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
removed12612
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Very valid point....Um, like freemasonhall.com?
I, uh, did.
S&F
BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
Hey we never made that "Tyled" section... we're cool. lol
See I was thinking the same for facebook, which I'm an avid user of. I started friending all these Lodges all over the U.S. and Canada. Then I realized they could be un-recognized Lodges. So I deleted them and I'm only going to friends Lodge I know. Besides who knows how many of the Lodge on Facebook are even real? But according to Ob its only if you willingly know that makes it an offense right?
Winter
I've been here before
You could use the ignorance card but I think a more prudent stance would be to use care and diligence in all your relationships (yes, even FB) and more especially if they may be Masonic in nature. Remember the two points of the compasses, Caution & Restraint.
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