G
Gary
Guest
Isn't the verbage flexible in Commandery as well? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that you either have to be Christian, or willing to defend the Christian faith.
Raised on Monday
- Thread starter Windrider
- Start date
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Non-Christians in YR
They usually open them in rotation each month, but when he would attend, they wouldn't open on the Commandery if it was that month's turn.
S&F
The only GM we ever had from my lodge was Jewish, he joined Chapter and Council, but not Commandery.
They usually open them in rotation each month, but when he would attend, they wouldn't open on the Commandery if it was that month's turn.
S&F
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
Gary , it is all in who you ask . Some would say it is open to anyone who would promise to defend the Christian faith . Some would disagree , and say it is only for Christians willing to defend the Christian Faith . I have seen this argued over many times in the past .
So yes it is all in the verbiage and how one takes it . I do not have my ritual near me , it is in my truck and it has been a while since I went through the KT OB . Maybe Patrick , as a PEC , can weigh in with his thoughts on it .
So yes it is all in the verbiage and how one takes it . I do not have my ritual near me , it is in my truck and it has been a while since I went through the KT OB . Maybe Patrick , as a PEC , can weigh in with his thoughts on it .
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
We rotate also , though we declare the other bodies open to keep it legal . If a Non-Christian is present and it is the Commandery's turn to open , then we will open on the Chapter or Council .
Winter
I've been here before
I've been involved in this debate for years about Commandery and non-Christians. And I can speak from first-hand experience since I was (I believe) the first Jew in Wisconsin to become a KT under the "defend the faith" interpretation.
I don't think this sat well with many Brothers here who still, today, believe that the Commandery should only be open to Christian men. I demitted shortly after recieving the degrees.
This debate has raised a few questions in my mind and maybe they will help spur some debate here on the subject.
First, can an appendant body that requires a candidate to be a member of a specific faith (i.e. KT = Christian, Royal Order of Scotland = Trinitarian) really call itself Masonic since one of our basic tenets is universiality as regards to religion?
Secondly, should the regalia of a Masonic body display as it's identifying emblem the symbol of any specific faith?
Just curious!
I don't think this sat well with many Brothers here who still, today, believe that the Commandery should only be open to Christian men. I demitted shortly after recieving the degrees.
This debate has raised a few questions in my mind and maybe they will help spur some debate here on the subject.
First, can an appendant body that requires a candidate to be a member of a specific faith (i.e. KT = Christian, Royal Order of Scotland = Trinitarian) really call itself Masonic since one of our basic tenets is universiality as regards to religion?
Secondly, should the regalia of a Masonic body display as it's identifying emblem the symbol of any specific faith?
Just curious!
BG_TRBL
Watcher of the posts
These are difficult questions to answer, however I will make my own opinions about it.First, can an appendant body that requires a candidate to be a member of a specific faith (i.e. KT = Christian, Royal Order of Scotland = Trinitarian) really call itself Masonic since one of our basic tenets is universiality as regards to religion?
Secondly, should the regalia of a Masonic body display as it's identifying emblem the symbol of any specific faith?
Just curious!
The first question, I do not feel they are so much requirements, as accepted premise. I say this because my commandery has never required, nor rejected anyone applying for the KT. It really becomes the candidate's feeling if they are in violation of their beliefs. I do not belong to Royal Order of Scotland, so I can't speak to that.
The second question, again these are accepted symbols from days gone by that our ancient brethren felt were correct symbolisms for the orders. The KT as I was told were originated by the Christian faith, and have since the crusades used the cross as a symbol of their faith and order. The Crown and the cross incorporated as the symbol of the order has been accepted and retained to this day.
Remember, these are just my opinions, and you may not agree with them. These are areas that are open for comment, however, never for attack.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
Wow, all I was going by was a one paragraph description in the Mass Freemason's Handbook. I don't want to start anything I know I cannot fully participate in, so the sentences, "Templary is the New Testament in Masonry and is based on the Christian Religion and the practice of Christian virtues.... (and later) followed by the later defense of the Christian religion by the ancient Templars." turned me off a bit.
My faith (Unitarian Universalism) is very inclusive. I have plenty to learn from all the great teachers of the world.
My faith (Unitarian Universalism) is very inclusive. I have plenty to learn from all the great teachers of the world.
Winter
I've been here before
[INSERT GENERIC UNINSIGHTFUL PERSONAL ATTACK THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE THREAD HERE]
I think this is a great topic, we may not come to any conclusions, but I think we are learning something.
Let's face it, until the last two decades, Freemasonry in the U.S. was predominantly Christian. It is very easy to see how some of these infuences in Masonry came about. But does it detract from our stated mission of universiality to have any "Masonic" organization with a restricted membership based on religion?
G
Gary
Guest
I've been looking into this, and from what I can get from my efforts is this;
On the national level, it appears to be Christian specific according to the constitution to belong to KT. That hasn't stopped local jurisdictions from interpreting the constitution their own way, and allowing other faiths based on their willingness to defend Christianity.
My opinion is that I'm on the fence about it. On one hand, I see the point of being Christian to be a KT because it is of Christian origin. The uniforms and regalia are Christian in nature, or so it would seem.
On the other hand, if a brother chooses to follow that path and it doesn't conflict with his own beliefs, than who are we to discriminate? Are they not worthy to contribute to the craft?
Keep in mind, I'm not a York Rite Mason nor am I an authority on the subject. These are just my thoughts on the subject.
On the national level, it appears to be Christian specific according to the constitution to belong to KT. That hasn't stopped local jurisdictions from interpreting the constitution their own way, and allowing other faiths based on their willingness to defend Christianity.
My opinion is that I'm on the fence about it. On one hand, I see the point of being Christian to be a KT because it is of Christian origin. The uniforms and regalia are Christian in nature, or so it would seem.
On the other hand, if a brother chooses to follow that path and it doesn't conflict with his own beliefs, than who are we to discriminate? Are they not worthy to contribute to the craft?
Keep in mind, I'm not a York Rite Mason nor am I an authority on the subject. These are just my thoughts on the subject.
removed12612
Guest
Are they meaning "Christian" protestant or Christian in general....including Catholism too?
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Gary
Guest
I would presume that the interpretation encompasses all of those you mentioned. The Knights Templar were originally under dispensation of the Catholic church from what I understand.
removed12612
Guest
And hunted down and killed by same said church too......
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Gary
Guest
Well, that's another topic entirely...but yes.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Yeah, I can do that. Mmm-hmm (clearing my throat): IT DEPENDS ON THE JURISDICTION. In some jurisdictions one MUST be a Trinitarian Christian to become a Knight Templar. In some, one must only be a Christian. In others, one must merely promise to defend the Christian faith if called upon to do so.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Do you stay up late at night thinking of these questions? Oh, mama!I've been involved in this debate for years about Commandery and non-Christians. And I can speak from first-hand experience since I was (I believe) the first Jew in Wisconsin to become a KT under the "defend the faith" interpretation.
I don't think this sat well with many Brothers here who still, today, believe that the Commandery should only be open to Christian men. I demitted shortly after recieving the degrees.
This debate has raised a few questions in my mind and maybe they will help spur some debate here on the subject.
First, can an appendant body that requires a candidate to be a member of a specific faith (i.e. KT = Christian, Royal Order of Scotland = Trinitarian) really call itself Masonic since one of our basic tenets is universiality as regards to religion?
Secondly, should the regalia of a Masonic body display as it's identifying emblem the symbol of any specific faith?
Just curious!
There is a Jewish gentleman in Racine who is thinking about joining the order just so he can become a Templar. Per him, his grandfather was a KT back in the 1920's (and involved with Grand Commandery, too). If accurate, then, you are not the first man of the Hebrew persuasion to become a Templar in Wisconsin. I have been told that there have been others.
Sorry to hear that you demitted. Yes, there are those who think that KT should be a Christians only club. I say light is light and those that seek it should be allowed to find it.
I don't necessarily agree that universality is one of our basic tenets. I would say that, in the Blue Lodge, non-sectarianism is one of our basic tenets in this country (I am told that Trinitarian Christianity is a requirement for Masonic membership in Ireland, for instance, and it certainly was for membership in England pre-1745), but that is NOT universality. However, outside of the Blue Lodge, all bets are off! Now, we have spoken at length (or at least typed at length) of how KT is not necessarily restricted to Christians in Wisconsin, however (and it's a big however, that's why I made it bold and italicized it
) in some places it is restricted. And indeed, Trinitarian Christianity is required for membership in the Royal Order of Scotland. But as you must first be a Freemason to join these orders, that means, by its nature, that these orders are indeed Masonic, just restricted. I would have no objection to an Order of Freemasonry restricted to Jews or Wiccans, or whatever (but that's just me). Those restrictions would not make the organizations any less Masonic, assuming that Masonic membership was a basic requirement for joining.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Well ... okay, but let's type this for clarity's sake: there is no historical connection between the ancient Knights Templar and the Masonic organization that bears that name. The Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the USA has that statement on their website, even.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
In fact, maybe we could call this organization The Elders of Zion and really put a twist in the knickers of those conspiracy nuts out there. Whaddya think?
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
I , neither , would have no problem with any other appendant body/order that would be restricted to any other religious preference . It is just not something I would worry about .
BG_TRBL
Watcher of the posts
Hmmmm is this the "Matrix".... sorry couldn't resist, I really liked that movie, and the sequel and the sequel-sequel
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.