Specifics behind a lack of amity.

G

Gary

Guest
Oh I had it all the time..... but how much fun would it be if we didnt ponder different angles of the same picture...... you just might find something new looking at it in a different way....

If we all agreed on everything and never considered other possibilities, wouldnt it be a boring world:cool:
What is already understood need not be discussed.

Your viewing if from other angles can be perceived as argumentative. If you are looking to debate a given topic, you might want to put a disclaimer that says so. Let the reader know you are wanting to debate.

That way, your stance isn't mis-understood. Unlike a face to face conversation, it's hard to perceive what your intentions are.
 
What is already understood need not be discussed.

Your viewing if from other angles can be perceived as argumentative. If you are looking to debate a given topic, you might want to put a disclaimer that says so. Let the reader know you are wanting to debate.

That way, your stance isn't mis-understood. Unlike a face to face conversation, it's hard to perceive what your intentions are.
Brother...with all due respect, the problem with the discussion was that not all was already understood.....there was multiple understandings of what went down.

As for perceptions, unfortunately in this type of conversation, way to many people take someone posting a different POV for discussion...and not necessarily their views as an act of defiance, which is very sad. When I pose a question either for against, I only expect a reply from those that wish to have a meaningful conversation on the different possibilities. Not every conversation has to be one where we all are on the same page...... which does not make it argumentative. In general, I think I am fairly good at marking comments that are my opinions with the standard (IMHO) or saying in my opinion...... some responsibility must rest on the readers shoulders to not make assumptions that I or anyone else is being defiant or argumentative just because we ask a question. We all know what happens when we assume things.
 

BukeyeJackson

ViMH Advisory Board
Snip We all know what happens when we assume things.

Yes, we however make use of goats not donkeys.
:D:D


OK so I do understand the issuse between once you returned to your jurisdiction. I, however, am lost to the aspect of I swear there is a line "under which the same shall be holden" So, that doesn't change conduct requirements? What of WB Winter? in WI they're PHA mutual I believe and if he moves to FL and maintains a plural (not that you are Winter but I need the hypothetical) how would the same situation play out?

I also agree with it's a Gold Collar drama with OH and WV. I personally want to attend a Lodge in every state but there are things that make me nervous.
For all I know though Ohio recognizes damn near everyone but the truest of clandestines so I think I'm covered. Just pondering.
 

edwmax

Active Member
In Ohio....(unless it has been recently changed) a MM can be a plural/dual member in PHA & MS masonry...within the state of OH....
Hummm ... that would be a dilemma ... I afraid it that Ohio MM is also a PHA Mason, I would not be able to admit him into my Lodge. It would not matter if the GL of Ohio is recognize by my GL.
 
Hummm ... that would be a dilemma ... I afraid it that Ohio MM is also a PHA Mason, I would not be able to admit him into my Lodge. It would not matter if the GL of Ohio is recognize by my GL.
Unless he just showed you his GL of OH dues card......if you didnt know, it wouldnt be a no-no....would it?
 
G

Gary

Guest
Unless he just showed you his GL of OH dues card......if you didnt know, it wouldnt be a no-no....would it?
How would you verify that he is actually a mason in good standing if you've never met him before? In my jurisdiction no dues card, no admission unless a brother vouches for the person in question.

But, IF you didn't know, how would it be a willful act? Good question!
 

Casey

MM, RAM, 32nd.
In Ohio....(unless it has been recently changed) a MM can be a plural/dual member in PHA & MS masonry...within the state of OH....
They certainly can. My grandfather was such.

When asking around a bit looking for more information, it seems the plot has thickened a bit. Further detail behind the issues follows.

The details, in immediate PGM Posey's words:

On April 22, 2010 the following was sent to those member Grand Lodges of the Conference of Grand Masters of North America.

I write to provide some explanation of the actions taken by Steubenville Lodge #45, regarding the Masonic membership of Frank J. Haas.

Frank J. Haas was Grand Master of The Grand Lodge of West Virginia in 2006. The following items were proposed by him and passed at the 2006 Grand Lodge Session held in Wheeling, but the vote was abruptly set aside less than two weeks later. This was and is again the current Masonic law under The Grand Lodge of West Virginia.

1. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia forbids the Pledge of Allegiance at lodge meetings.

2. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia is the only Grand Lodge to refuse by law to allow DeMolay, Rainbow, or Job’s Daughters to meet in any lodge rooms. Their lodges are forbidden from donating any money to any charitable organization, including Masonic youth organizations or permitting them to earn money on the lodge premises.

3. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia is the only Grand Lodge in the United States not to belong to the Masonic Service Association.

4. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia forbids the charter of a Royal Arch Chapter to hang in its lodge rooms. No Masonic art that includes symbols of any other Masonic organization except the symbolic lodge can hang in West Virginia lodge rooms (this includes portraits of Past Grand High Priests and Past Grand Commanders). The Grand Lodge of West Virginia has banned books, movies, slideshows, songs, CD’s, an Ohio singer, and websites.

5. Family members cannot be pallbearers at a Masonic Funeral in West Virginia unless they are Masons. The ashes of a deceased brother cannot receive a Masonic Funeral in West Virginia, because it is by their Masonic law declared “undignified.”

6. Almost no one with a physical disability can be elected to receive the degree of Freemasonry in a Lodge under The Grand Lodge of West Virginia. The cause of the injury, be it military service or anything else, does not matter.

The above-referenced reforms were passed as part of the “Wheeling Reforms” at the 2006 Grand Lodge Session of The Grand Lodge of West Virginia but were set aside by the succeeding Grand Master less than two weeks later. That action has brought about the turmoil in the Craft in West Virginia and ultimately resulted in the expulsion of Frank J. Haas, the Grand Master who proposed the reforms.

All of these topics have been the subject of much discussion on the websites, including Freemasons For Dummies and masonic-crusade.com and blogs and the Philalethes publications. This has also been widely reported in detail in the popular press by the Associated Press and with a color spread in the New York Times.

I have observed the situation for two and a half years. In a most respectful tone, I wrote to three Grand Masters of West Virginia and offered my good offices to mediate its conflict. All offers were ignored or rejected.

Steubenville Lodge #45 regularly received and investigated a petition from Frank J. Haas to receive the degrees of Freemasonry in that Lodge.

He made a full disclosure of the Notice of Expulsion by the Past Grand Master of West Virginia and answered all questions presented to him by the Steubenville Lodge's Committee of Investigation. The Lodge did the necessary background work, including a home visit. They were convinced that he was a good man and true, and he met all requirements, including residency for the requisite time, for membership.
I thoroughly researched the Code of The Grand Lodge of Ohio and determined that there is nothing to prevent his receiving the degrees. Inasmuch as he is an Ohio resident, the Constitution of The Grand Lodge of Ohio confers jurisdiction over his membership to The Grand Lodge of Ohio.

After he was unanimously elected to receive the degrees by Steubenville Lodge #45, I concurred with the Lodge that the laws of The Grand Lodge of Ohio had been complied with, and the Lodge proceeded to confer the three degrees of Freemasonry on Frank J. Haas, who for years had been an honorary member of that lodge. On April 17, 2010, he received the three degrees of Freemasonry in Steubenville Lodge.

On the next business day, the Grand Master of West Virginia withdrew fraternal relations with The Grand Lodge of Ohio because of the action taken by Steubenville Lodge.

The Grand Lodge of West Virginia has withdrawn its fraternal recognition of other Grand Lodges before. In 1991, Charles E. Forsythe, then Grand Master, issued two edicts regarding Prince Hall Masons. His edicts forbade members of The Grand Lodge of West Virginia to be present in Lodges under the Grand Lodges of Connecticut, Wisconsin, Nebraska, State of Washington, Colorado, Minnesota, and North Dakota, all of which had recognized the regular Prince Hall Grand Lodges in their states.

Despite the unfortunate action taken by The Grand Lodge of West Virginia, I am convinced that Steubenville Lodge #45 acted consistently with the Code of The Grand Lodge of Ohio, and I find no fault on their part or that of Brother Haas.

The Grand Lodge of Ohio acted consistently with Ohio law. We ask our sister Grand Lodges to respect our law.

Fraternally,

Terry W. Posey
Grand Master

Addendum to Blog Article on 4/23/2010:
I have been informed by the Grand Master of West Virginia, that this withdrawl does NOT interfere with fraternal relations of appendant bodies and that members can continue those relationships.

A quote by Martin Luther King: "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about those things that matter."
 
If there is ever a question of fraternal relations or not..... it would be a safe bet to say one should always err on the side of caution.....I would hope a Brother would understand if you was visiting and someone from a different GL was there and you didnt know if you could or could not set in Lodge with them and you opted to respectfully excuse yourself....no one would want you to willfully or knowingly violate anything.
 
G

Gary

Guest
And what a post it is... why would Haas propose and pass such legislation????

Having known that he did this and it resulted in his expulsion, why would the GL of Ohio agree to accept him? I don't understand...
 

edwmax

Active Member
I don't understand the quote in post #49. I have never read that before, but several of the statement does not indicate how those items were changed. ... Further, it was my understanding there was a vote to recognize PHA within WV; that was not not included in the above quote. PGM Haas was suspended because he denied working with a group of Masons promoting the recognition of PHA. This was in a public letter on the GLo WV website by PGM Montgomery.... So the entire above quote appears biased and misleading.

A bigger problem that I see, was the ability of the GM to set aside the actions of the Grand Lodge. ... The GM in my GL can not over rule the actions of the GL; and if any edicts issued by the GM are not approved by vote of the GL, those edict expire at the close of the GL session. ... If the GM of WV has that much power to over rule the GL, then the Grand Lodge of WV is useless.

I do not believe we yet been given the full story of what when on. There is much backroom politics within that GL.



Edit: changed 45 to 49: sorry fireman: oh well, strike through BBCode doesn't work.
 
And what a post it is... why would Haas propose and pass such legislation????

Having known that he did this and it resulted in his expulsion, why would the GL of Ohio agree to accept him? I don't understand...
I believe GM Haas was wanting to change these things...He is pro PHA, wanted the Pledge in Lodge, didnt like the no deformities,etc....

He was expelled After the incoming GM issued the edict declaring the votes in favor of his changes null...... he was offered a chance to recant.....declined and was handed a suspension in the parking lot of his WV lodge....no trial ...
 
I don't understand the quote in post #45. I have never read that before, but several of the statement does not indicate how those items were changed. ... Further, it was my understanding there was a vote to recognize PHA within WV; that was not not included in the above quote. PGM Haas was suspended because he denied working with a group of Masons promoting the recognition of PHA. This was in a public letter on the GLo WV website by PGM Montgomery.... So the entire above quote appears biased and misleading.

A bigger problem that I see, was the ability of the GM to set aside the actions of the Grand Lodge. ... The GM in my GL can not over rule the actions of the GL; and if any edicts issued by the GM are not approved by vote of the GL, those edict expire at the close of the GL session. ... If the GM of WV has that much power to over rule the GL, then the Grand Lodge of WV is useless.

I do not believe we yet been given the full story of what when on. There is much backroom politics within that GL.
Whats not to understand?...... The GL o OH allows their members to hold dual/plural membership in a Lodge under the MWPHAGL o OH.......

As to the incoming GM of WV...he issued an edict making the vote null and void......I believe all GM have that power....issuing an edict does not require a vote.........and none of the GMs that have come along since have rescinded the edict.

With all due respect to the GLoWV, they are known to march to the beat of a different drummer....Not saying they are wrong....just different than most in the USA.
 

Casey

MM, RAM, 32nd.
And what a post it is... why would Haas propose and pass such legislation????

Having known that he did this and it resulted in his expulsion, why would the GL of Ohio agree to accept him? I don't understand...
The post I made referenced what the state of Masonry was in WV at the time Haas took office. He issued what are now called the Wheeling Reforms, which rescind those- so there would be the Flag and Pledge, PH would be recognized, the disabled could be members, and so on.

If anything, he was bringing WV in line with essentially everyone else on everything but PH, and it would seem the PH reform was his undoing.
 

edwmax

Active Member
Whats not to understand?...... The GL o OH allows their members to hold dual/plural membership in a Lodge under the MWPHAGL o OH.......

As to the incoming GM of WV...he issued an edict making the vote null and void......I believe all GM have that power....issuing an edict does not require a vote.........and none of the GMs that have come along since have rescinded the edict.

With all due respect to the GLoWV, they are known to march to the beat of a different drummer....Not saying they are wrong....just different than most in the USA.
One) Plural Membership in the GL of Ohio was not an issue in my post and was not mentioned.

Two) An incoming GM does not have that power at all. .. A GM can issue edicts as long as it does not over-rule GL Code or explicitly rule on the areas reserved for GL action only. ..... If the GM of WV can do this, then the GL of WV is useless ..... And, that was the point of my post; GM Coleman by edict set aside the action & vote of the GL.

Three) Edicts must be approve by the Grand Lodge or the Edict expires. An GM does not have to rescind edicts of his predecessor; and it is not likely a GM will re-issue Edicts of which the GL would not approve.

Four) They "march to the beat of a different drummer' ... that was the point of my post.
 
One) Plural Membership in the GL of Ohio was not an issue in my post and was not mentioned.

Two) An incoming GM does not have that power at all. .. A GM can issue edicts as long as it does not over-rule GL Code or explicitly rule on the areas reserved for GL action only. ..... If the GM of WV can do this, then the GL of WV is useless ..... And, that was the point of my post; GM Coleman by edict set aside the action & vote of the GL.

Three) Edicts must be approve by the Grand Lodge or the Edict expires. An GM does not have to rescind edicts of his predecessor; and it is not likely a GM will re-issue Edicts of which the GL would not approve.

Four) They "march to the beat of a different drummer' ... that was the point of my post.
If you was not referring to the quote in post #45, I do apologize..... you just said you didnt understand the quote in #45.....I was just trying to make a clarification if you was referring to my post.... no harm...no foul.
 
G

Gary

Guest
I believe GM Haas was wanting to change these things...He is pro PHA, wanted the Pledge in Lodge, didnt like the no deformities,etc....

He was expelled After the incoming GM issued the edict declaring the votes in favor of his changes null...... he was offered a chance to recant.....declined and was handed a suspension in the parking lot of his WV lodge....no trial ...
I read it several times, and it appeared that he proposed those restrictions. I guess I didn't understand the post clearly enough. Thanks Fireman/Casey for clarifying this for me.
 
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