MM Topic FM & Religion

[removed12612]

CAUTION!!!!... This discussion may be more than the weak hearted or closed minded can handle...enter at your own risk......




On this forum and many, many others the topic of religion has come up at least once...... now I have a different angle I am curious about:

What do you think masonry would be if all religious connections were removed from the craft?

 

[Duncan1574]

IMHO, GAOTU, Deity, is the very foundation of FM. It is in G-D, that is the first pass code of an EA.

If Deity where to be removed from FM, where was our moral compass (aka direction) be derived? Would we follow the whim of a human oracle/prophet.

Sidebar: Could you imagine the ruckus the Church would have if we couldn't point to the VSL upon our altar?

 

[removed12612]

I ask just to read others thoughts..... everyone says that we shouldnt discuss religion.... if that is the case, why is there so much based on religion???....

 

[BukeyeJackson]

I ask just to read others thoughts..... everyone says that we shouldnt discuss religion.... if that is the case, why is there so much based on religion???....

To lay us under obligation. There is reason any man with a belief in one Supreme Being may join. He needs to have a true point that binds his words. Without this any promise means nothing.

We do however have a Brother who said even without law a mason would still be a good man. That's why we are ones in our hearts first.

 

[Winter]

Without religion, Freemasonry becomes clandestine like the Grande Oriente de France who permit atheists to walk in the light and call themselves a Brother. Anathema. Abomination. Detested. Reprehensible.

Not going to sugar-coat my thoughts on this one.

 

[CoachN]

...What do you think masonry would be if all religious connections were removed from the craft?

Exactly what it is now.

It's not a matter of "if"; religion has been removed from the Craft.

What you and others see are references that you take as "religious." They are not religious references. They are spiritual references that religions and other teaching institutions use to convey Truths.

I ask just to read others thoughts..... everyone says that we shouldnt discuss religion.... if that is the case, why is there so much based on religion???....

First off, not "everyone says that we shouldn't discuss religion." I don't say this and quite a few other Brothers I know don't say this either.

And, once again, the references Brothers claim to be "based on religion" are symbolic references that religions use to point to Truths. These symbols are universal and found in most religions posession some sincere theology.

Don't be fooled by the shadows on the wall my Brother.

 

[removed12612]

Without religion, Freemasonry becomes clandestine like the Grande Oriente de France who permit atheists to walk in the light and call themselves a Brother. Anathema. Abomination. Detested. Reprehensible.

Not going to sugar-coat my thoughts on this one.

I understand and agree.... That statement to me proves that the basic principles of masonry are indeed based on religion...... not denominational. I believe those that say religion should not be discussed by Masons are leaning more towards those you mentioned...

 

[Gary]

I was taught that religion should not be discussed in Lodge. Not that we as Masons can't discuss religion. There is a difference.

 

[removed12612]

Exactly what it is now.

It's not a matter of "if"; religion has been removed from the Craft.

1) What you and others see are references that you take as "religious." They are not religious references. They are spiritual references that religions and other teaching institutions use to convey Truths.

2)First off, not "everyone says that we shouldn't discuss religion." I don't say this and quite a few other Brothers I know don't say this either.

And, once again, the references Brothers claim to be "based on religion" are symbolic references that religions use to point to Truths. These symbols are universal and found in most religions posession some sincere theology.

Don't be fooled by the shadows on the wall my Brother.

Brother... I respectfully submit that spirituality is nothing more than a by-product of religion......I submit that the authors of our current rituals did indeed have specific religious connections with the Bible verses read during the degrees and other religious references (here, we dedicate our lodges to G_d and H S J and might I note G_d is listed with a capital G there for it is meant as a proper name, if it was intended to mean deity then it would not have been written in proper form)..... if they are nothing more that words of wisdom....can the be simply replaced with wise words from different philosophers.....if they can be replaced....why were they used in the beginning?... I submit that the Bible was used because the authors of our ritual based the tenants of masonry on what the Bible describes as right and wrong....and what is moral etc...

2) I didnt say ALL.... but there are a lot that say religion and politics should not be discussed.... I know not in Lodge...but plenty say it should not be....you my friend are an exception to many rules.

I am not being fooled by shadows..... I am very confident and comfortable with religion and masonry ..... I simply have offered up a question for discussion.....

 

[removed12612]

I was taught that religion should not be discussed in Lodge. Not that we as Masons can't discuss religion. There is a difference.

Me too.... but we have all seen threads about religion and someone always says we shouldnt discuss it.... I say we should and maybe often...

 

[removed12612]

Quoted from Brother Caution1010 from mastermasonforum.com:

"I think Freemasonry has its extra thump because it speaks to a good man's conscience through its foundation in a religious base.

I know that and remember it clearly with my EA. Lessons that I believed in before such as Matt 22:36-40 were reinforced through freemasonry and the new and very pertinent and enlightening lesson I learned in Matthew 7:7-8 amongst other bible verses and biblical references.

Without that, Freemasonry would just be a social club and nothing more."

 

[Gary]

Brother... I respectfully submit that spirituality is nothing more than a by-product of religion......I submit that the authors of our current rituals did indeed have specific religious connections with the Bible verses read during the degrees and other religious references (here, we dedicate our lodges to G_d and H S J and might I note G_d is listed with a capital G there for it is meant as a proper name, if it was intended to mean deity then it would not have been written in proper form)..... if they are nothing more that words of wisdom....can the be simply replaced with wise words from different philosophers.....if they can be replaced....why were they used in the beginning?... I submit that the Bible was used because the authors of our ritual based the tenants of masonry on what the Bible describes as right and wrong....and what is moral etc...

2) I didnt say ALL.... but there are a lot that say religion and politics should not be discussed.... I know not in Lodge...but plenty say it should not be....you my friend are an exception to many rules.

I am not being fooled by shadows..... I am very confident and comfortable with religion and masonry ..... I simply have offered up a question for discussion.....

I'm going to muddy the water for the sake of discussion (see your quote I've highlighted in bold)... Explain Deism then.

I'll leave the other part of your argument for Bro. Coach...

 

[removed12612]

I'm going to muddy the water for the sake of discussion (see your quote I've highlighted in bold)... Explain Deism then.

I'll leave the other part of your argument for Bro. Coach...

Deism..... to me is the belief in a single god.... notice I didnt capitalize the G... since not religions refer to their deity as God as the Christian religion does... I dont think spirituality is is a product of a particular dogma..... just religion in general..... atheist are very spiritual are they?

I could post the dictionary definition but we are all capable of looking it up.

 

[removed12612]

For the record, I want everyone to know I dont think religion should be removed.... on the contrary, I believe it plays a vital role in masonry.....as a matter of fact, I dont think we can have masonry without religion

 

[CoachN]

Brother... I respectfully submit that spirituality is nothing more than a by-product of religion...

I respectfully counter:Without a doubt in my mind, "Religion*" is a by-product of "Spirituality.**" At least, for those who are the founders. For the followers, well, that is a whole other discussion.

* "Religion" a.k.a "the map"
** "Spirituality" a.k.a "the experience"

I'm going to muddy the water for the sake of discussion (see your quote I've highlighted in bold)... Explain Deism then.

I'll leave the other part of your argument for Bro. Coach...

You're doing fine...

 

[Gary]

Deism..... to me is the belief in a single god.... notice I didnt capitalize the G... since not religions refer to their deity as God as the Christian religion does... I dont think spirituality is is a product of a particular dogma..... just religion in general..... atheist are very spiritual are they?

I could post the dictionary definition but we are all capable of looking it up.

Deism is not a religion. It is a state of being, or rather the belief in a power greater than yourself, (G-d). It is not a religion per se because it follows no particular pantheon or religious doctrine.

 

[removed12612]

I didnt say it was a religion.... I said it was a belief in a single deity or god....how one expresses it varies and that is where the basis of doctrine begins

 

[Gary]

I didnt say it was a religion.... I said it was a belief in a single deity or god....how one expresses it varies and that is where the basis of doctrine begins

No you didn't. BUT... You made the statement (and then reversed it in another) that "Spirituality is the byproduct of religion." If you have no religion (i.e. Deism), where does the spirituality come from?

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

 

[removed12612]

I respectfully counter:Without a doubt in my mind, "Religion*" is a by-product of "Spirituality.**" At least, for those who are the founders. For the followers, well, that is a whole other discussion.

* "Religion" a.k.a "the map"
** "Spirituality" a.k.a "the experience"

You're doing fine...

I can accept that as your understanding....I have my thoughts on it. We can both look at it and see different things..... I dont see how someone can be spiritual without religion but I do see how one can be religious but not be spiritual.....

Just the thoughts of a man who also takes great pleasure in going into burning buildings.... so I may be a bit off center on my thinking.... neither is any more right or wrong than the other.....

 

[removed12612]

No you didn't. BUT... You made the statement (and then reversed it in another) that "Spirituality is the byproduct of religion." If you have no religion (i.e. Deism), where does the spirituality come from?

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Deism..... belief in a single god.... not a religion..... doctrine is the teachings of a particular deity and that is where religion comes from.... all masons believe in a single god (deism) but not all are religious or spiritual.