MM Topic FM & Religion

[removed12612]

Did I fix it good?

Like a true Craftsman.....

 

[Winter]

Without religion, Freemasonry becomes clandestine like the Grande Oriente de France who permit atheists to walk in the light and call themselves a Brother. Anathema. Abomination. Detested. Reprehensible.

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TROL ALERT. It is a cut and paste of my post on page one and the links in the signature go to hair removal.

 

[CoachN]

Good Catch!

 

[Brother Jason Eddy]

Brethren,

Let me first say that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all 25 pages of this thread…I only wish I had found this forum sooner  I feel that a couple excellent points were made throughout, but were overshadowed by the larger debate. I believe that the majority of this debate (the discussion around spirituality) is simply based in semantics. Religious versus Spiritual. It is my opinion that in many instances you must move beyond the religious/dogmatic to find the spiritual.

To clarify my stance on the two terms:

Religious teachings are dogma-based doctrines that attempt to explain what is in my opinion unexplainable. Simply a hierarchical structure put in place by those who claim to know the unknowable and expect you to accept their understanding of it without question. They come with lots of labels like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. They attempt to simplify that which cannot be simplified. They are someone’s best guess.

Spiritual teachings are found through experiences that cannot be put into words and do not fall into any given religion. I experience G-d everyday, in everything, not because I have read that He exists in the Bible, but because I can feel His presence in every part of me. I can see what He has built (whether in 6 days or 6 millennia) and appreciate the complexity that, though I seek to understand it, I do so knowing that I most likely never will. This is the universality of Deity.

That is my perspective. To the OP. I believe that the removal of any religious connections to Masonry would have no impact on Masonry to me. Lack of religious connections is what brought me to Masonry to begin with. As was mentioned somewhere in the 25 pages, it is not my business the name that my Brother has given to his G-d. It is not required, nor is it appropriate for me to inquire as to the religion of a candidate. Let us not forget the “universality of Masonry”. We require only that a Brother has a belief in G-d. NOT that he has a belief in OUR G-d.

The man who calls his god fireman999 has every right to do so. There have been many “religions” over the course of history with many different “gods”. Simply because it is different from ours does not negate its value to those who believe it. I would speculate that the first man to label himself as Christian got a few strange looks as well. Does the premise that Christianity is accepted by a vast majority of people make it any more true? I would contend that it does so only to those who already believe it. We believe based on our spiritual experience with Deity, not because a book tells us to. We are told in our ritual (at least in Ohio) to “erect our spiritual temple according to the rules and designs laid down by the SAOTU in the great books of nature and revelation”, not the Holy Bible. G-d is not found in the HB but in the heart of those who believe in Him. The HB is simply a map (borrowing the analogy) that others have created.

Perhaps some redundant points, but thought I would put them out there just the same.

Your Brother,

Jason

 

[removed12612]

Hey, thanks for the input....as for the OP....I still feel that for some reason religion plays a big part in masonry.... here religious symbols are major parts of masonry such as the 3GL of masonry.....not intending to be offensive but I am sure it might offend someone I believe the authors of the predominant ritual used in the USA used symbols from the Judeo-Christian faiths....... I do wonder why no other religious connections were used... maybe it was purely a periodical thing where other religions were not very well known???

But this is just the opinion of a man with a very rough ashlar....

 

[Winter]

<snip> Religious teachings are dogma-based doctrines that attempt to explain what is in my opinion unexplainable. Simply a hierarchical structure put in place by those who claim to know the unknowable and expect you to accept their understanding of it without question. They come with lots of labels like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. They attempt to simplify that which cannot be simplified. They are someone’s best guess. <snip>

<snip> We believe based on our spiritual experience with Deity, not because a book tells us to. We are told in our ritual (at least in Ohio) to “erect our spiritual temple according to the rules and designs laid down by the SAOTU in the great books of nature and revelation”, not the Holy Bible. G-d is not found in the HB but in the heart of those who believe in Him. The HB is simply a map (borrowing the analogy) that others have created. <snip>

I am not sure if this is how you meant it, but it comes off as somewhat insulting for those of us like me, who is an observant Jew, to be told that the Torah is just someones best guess as opposed to the Holy words given from G-d.

As for belief, my faith is much more concerned with actions instead. And the required actions are laid out in the Torah. So the book itself is exceedingly important to me.

 

[BukeyeJackson]

It also says "the Holy Bible is the inestimable gift of G-d". Not to gang up on you Brother, just wanted to point out there is in our ritual that says we need the Bible or VSL.

 

[Brother Jason Eddy]

I am not sure if this is how you meant it, but it comes off as somewhat insulting for those of us like me, who is an observant Jew, to be told that the Torah is just someones best guess as opposed to the Holy words given from G-d.

As for belief, my faith is much more concerned with actions instead. And the required actions are laid out in the Torah. So the book itself is exceedingly important to me.

Brother,

It was not my intent to insult you or your beliefs in anyway. If I have done so, please accept my apologies. What I was attempting to do was distinguish the difference between religion as it is TAUGHT and spirituality as it is EXPERIENCED. It is my sincere belief that many who teach it have never experienced it, hence the "best guess" comment. I believe that G-d's word can be found throughout many spiritual texts, as I stated "in the great books of nature and revelation". While I have not personally studied the Torah, I have no doubt that it falls into this category. Again, if I have offended you, I sincerely apologize.

As to your point Brother BH, we are told that the reason that the Bible is dedicated to G-d is because "it is the inestimable gift of G-d to man". This is simply stating why that particular VSL is dedicated to G-d.

To be clear, I am not stating that I believe that the Bible or any other book should be removed from the Lodge. Quite the contrary! I believe that we should not limit ourselves to only one particular VSL due to religous beliefs. We are told that we are to "erect our spiritual temple according to the rules and designs laid out by the SAOTU in the great BOOKS of nature and revelation"......not BOOK. My point was simply that dogma has no place in Lodge. Deity does not require the presence of dogma to add Light to our journey.

Your Brother,

Jason

 

[Winter]

<snip> I believe that we should not limit ourselves to only one particular VSL due to religious beliefs. We are told that we are to "erect our spiritual temple according to the rules and designs laid out by the SAOTU in the great BOOKS of nature and revelation"......not BOOK. My point was simply that dogma has no place in Lodge. Deity does not require the presence of dogma to add Light to our journey.

Your Brother,

Jason

I figured that was where you were going but wasn't sure. No apology necessary. But in response, Masonry does not limit itself to one VSL. My Lodge in Wisconsin, like every Lodge in Israel, has 3 books, the New Testament, Koran, and the TaNaKh, open on the altar when we meet.

Masonry can easily be said to have the same basic belief as Judaism; that all paths to G-d are valid.

 

[CoachN]

Masonry can easily be said to have the same basic belief as Judaism; that all paths to G-d are valid.

As a believer in the same, I would love to know what scripture backs this up. Would you please share with us what is Written?

 

[Winter]

As a believer in the same, I would love to know what scripture backs this up. Would you please share with us what is Written?

For everyone except the Jews there are only 7 laws that a person must follow, regardless of religion or lack thereof, to have a portion of the world to come. They are called the Noachide.

1.Prohibition of Idolatry
2.Prohibition of Murder
3.Prohibition of Theft
4.Prohibition of Sexual immorality
5.Prohibition of Blasphemy
6.Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
7.Establishment of courts of law

That's it. 7 pretty simple rules. While WE have 613!! LOL

[edit] Here is some more reading. http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Noah The site is JewFaq.org, one of the best sources for all your Gentile questions about us Jews! (You'd be surprised how much you don't know! LOL)

 

[CoachN]

So Brother Winter,

The statement:

...that all paths to G-d are valid.

Is a personal conclusion and the Book doesn't actually say this?

 

[Winter]

So Brother Winter,

The statement:
Is a personal conclusion and the Book doesn't actually say this?

No, according to every Rabbi I've ever had it's true. It doesn't matter, according to them, as long as a person follows the Noahide.

 

[CoachN]

No, according to every Rabbi I've ever had it's true. It doesn't matter, according to them, as long as a person follows the Noahide.

So this is their collective rendered opinion based on their scholarship?

 

[Winter]

So this is their collective rendered opinion based on their scholarship?

Since I'm not a Rabbi (yet), I had to go look up the authority in Jewish law for this position.

Non-Jews who aren't sinners (i.e., who obey the Noahide laws) go to heaven when they die (Talmud, Sanhedrin 102b; Maimonides, Repentance 3:5). When the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 11:1) lists major sinners who have no share in the World to Come, it includes a non-Jew, Bilaam. This implies that ordinary sinners, whether Jewish or not, are subject to the same rules: temporary punishment followed by permanent reward.

 

[CoachN]

Thanks Bro.

 

[Winter]

Thanks Bro.

No problem, I hope the info helped. I think it is an issue that many Christians have difficulty understanding in Judaism since it is so radically different from their view. Even sinners who are not Jews go to heaven. Very few in all history make the short list of being barred.