What do you want out of Masonry ?

[Ashlar2006]

Before I begin , I am not flaming anyone in particular , it is merely a topic of discussion .

What do you want out of Masonry ? What is Masonry to you ? I ask because we have a section titled ESOTERIC Masonry that when topics are posted very few comment on them . I am guilty of that myself , BUT , I do take great interest in them . As my Grandfather once told me , you learn more with your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut . So I read , I learn , I pay attention when Gary , Winter , Coach and others are conversing in that section . But there seems very little interest from many . We also talk of how Masonic education is NEEDED in our lodges YET I have read where some stated that they can care less about that aspect of the lodge .

But , when you start a thread concerning trivial topics such as rings , decals , license plates or how to plan card games and picnics for your lodge to try to get members to attend lodge and some will post till their hearts are content . And I will be completely honest , I started that "Masonic License Plate" thread as a test to see how much interest it would generate over threads with some meat on their bones .

If one does not care about Masonic education , philosophical topics , the deeper meaning of the symbolism in our degrees etc; etc; , or if you think that these topics SHOULD NOT be the first and foremost number one concern in our lodges then why are you Masons ? If it is fellowship you are looking for , they have that it in spades in groups such as the Elks & Moose lodges . You can even throw back that alcohol so many are clamoring for in the Masonic temple . And before you jump stiff legged , I am not saying fellowship with the brethren is a bad thing as it is not , I have made many , many great friends in the Fraternity , but there is a greater purpose to Masonry , and that is improving ourselves . And that is done through study and education then applying what we learn to our everyday lives .

There is a saying in Freemasonry " We take good men and make them better" . I do not like that saying , I do not like it because we can not force or make men better , it is up to the individual . It should be "We take in good men , we present them with certain lectures , rituals and tools , but it is up to them to apply what they learn to their lives and make themselves better ." . We can not do that without Masonic education . Going through the degrees is a whirl wind of information to the new Masons . What do we do after their degrees are over ? Most lodges leave the new Mason struggling on his own to learn what he has just been through . So after we confer these degrees on new (and old) Masons , we should be educating them AND OURSELVES further concerning the degrees during our meetings .

Again , not flaming anyone , just curious .

ETA : Also , What do you consider "Masonic education" ?

 

[Duncan1574]

No offense taken. My Lodge falls into the 'business meeting' mold. As a new Mason, I wish we had more education, we have a goodly number of EAs & FCs in the pipe so we are doing degrees often, which I love. At one point I as doing a short educational spot, the 3 minute Mason, but that fell on the sidelines due to the time taken up talking through the consolidation of another Lodge.

 

[Gary2112]

No offense taken. My Lodge falls into the 'business meeting' mold. As a new Mason, I wish we had more education, we have a goodly number of EAs & FCs in the pipe so we are doing degrees often, which I love. At one point I as doing a short educational spot, the 3 minute Mason, but that fell on the sidelines due to the time taken up talking through the consolidation of another Lodge.

I can see how the mundane workings of the Lodge can limit time allowed during the meetings, there is nothing from stopping the WM from scheduling a stated communication with the sole purpose of devoting the majority of the time to education. Many Lodges never consider this option.

 

[Ashlar2006]

The mundane business of the lodge does not take that long really , if the Master runs the lodge properly and limits the debates to a time limit then all that business can be accomplished rather quickly . Why meetings seem to "run long" is because many of the brethren are on the edge of their seats staring at the clock because their team is playing on the TV that night . Any meeting that lasts longer than 30-45 minutes and they are getting antsy . If a brother would rather watch the game , then stay home .

I want my trip to lodge to be worth while , I want it to be enlightening .

 

[Windrider]

I enjoy reading Masonic books and the esoteric side of the Craft is important to me. Unfortunately, my level of understanding is more at the "Freemasonry for Dummies" level than the "Morals and Dogma" level. Some of the "pro" level discussions in the esoteric forum section just seem to be smart people showing each other how smart they are.

I've known a lot of smart people, some have even won the Nobel Prize (I worked at MIT). The single characteristic that I've found in the smartest people I've known is the ability to make themselves understood to normal humans like me. When I see forum posts that are so obscure that even the most learned of us can't understand, I get turned off.

I ran into Harold (Doc) Edgerton one evening while I was looking at the photographs he made and the sonar images his inventions produced on display outside his lab. It wasn't until fifteen minutes into the conversation that I realized who he was. He was dressed in a janitor's uniform and the hint that gave him away was a stack of post cards in his breast pocket of his famous Milk Drop photograph. When I did figure out who he was, he invited me into his lab to, as he put it, "play". He could have dazzled me with jargon or simply considered me beneath his contempt but he treated me as a curios mind and set about enlightening me in such a way that we were just playing together. I've had similar experiences with George Wald (Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology) and Philip Morrison (Physics).

When I can't understand what's being said, I'm in the wrong discussion.

 

[Gary2112]

I enjoy reading Masonic books and the esoteric side of the Craft is important to me. Unfortunately, my level of understanding is more at the "Freemasonry for Dummies" level than the "Morals and Dogma" level. Some of the "pro" level discussions in the esoteric forum section just seem to be smart people showing each other how smart they are.

I've known a lot of smart people, some have even won the Nobel Prize (I worked at MIT). The single characteristic that I've found in the smartest people I've known is the ability to make themselves understood to normal humans like me. When I see forum posts that are so obscure that even the most learned of us can't understand, I get turned off.

I ran into Harold (Doc) Edgerton one evening while I was looking at the photographs he made and the sonar images his inventions produced on display outside his lab. It wasn't until fifteen minutes into the conversation that I realized who he was. He was dressed in a janitor's uniform and the hint that gave him away was a stack of post cards in his breast pocket of his famous Milk Drop photograph. When I did figure out who he was, he invited me into his lab to, as he put it, "play". He could have dazzled me with jargon or simply considered me beneath his contempt but he treated me as a curios mind and set about enlightening me in such a way that we were just playing together. I've had similar experiences with George Wald (Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology) and Philip Morrison (Physics).

When I can't understand what's being said, I'm in the wrong discussion.

Brother,

I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I have a few points I'd like to make from your observations:

1. I firmly believe that you under estimate your ability to engage in these types of conversations. If I can think outside the box anyone can if they try.

2. The purpose of these discussions is not to show off or demonstrate intellect, but rather share ideas in places where most feel out of their comfort zone. that's the only way growth occurs.

3. I agree with obscure posts being a turn off. I have my own set of dislikes in that regard, but when those occur I start asking questions even though they may be rudimentary to the adept. You'd be surprised how the jargon can often change to a more even keel for the sake of discussion and learning for all involved. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

4. I feel most who don't post are either intimidated by topics they know little about, or are just plain old not interested in learning anything outside of their comfort zone. And some, just aren't interested in esoterics period (which sort of befuddles me).

 

[Ashlar2006]

Okay , let's leave the Esoteric Freemasonry section out of the mix for now and say any topic that delves into Freemasonry other than the superficial topics such as I listed above . Here we have a thread that could lead to some interesting discussion with very few bites thus far (but it is early yet) . But if this was a thread about Masonic rings , we would be two pages deep by now .

And this is why I started this thread . As I stated in the Masonic License plate thread , The Masonic priorities of some leaves me scratching my head in confusion .

As far as someone trying to show how smart they are , I do not see that as true . They are not trying to show how smart they are ...... they are smart and it shows . And when I read those posts , I am left to search out more information so I CAN understand what they are talking about and this leads me to other strings of thought .

 

[goomba]

I'm trying to start a dining club in my area for the purpose of Masonic Education. The brethren I've talked to are semi-interested. If it does come to pass I want to go though Coach's book series first. If it doesn't happen I'll do it myself.

 

[Ashlar2006]

I'm trying to start a dining club in my area for the purpose of Masonic Education. The brethren I've talked to are semi-interested. If it does come to pass I want to go though Coach's book series first. If it doesn't happen I'll do it myself.

That is great brother , and I really mean that !!!! BUT (and this is no reflection on you) do you not think that this should be done in our lodges ?That this is something your Master and officers should be offering to you and the Craft ?

We put Masons through the degrees and tell them "You want more enlightenment , then go into the YR/SR !" or say nothing at all and leave it up to themselves to stumble around in the dark .

As for what some think Masonic education consists of , I have heard numerous examples ...... The proper procedure of balloting , How to introduce special guests , How a Deacon/Steward is supposed to carry their staffs etc; etc; . NOT the education I have in mind !

 

[Gary2112]

Goomba,

Regardless of where you decide to start your efforts for education (and I do agree Lodge is the best place), If you choose to go the Coach route I would like to offer some advice. PM me for more on this. In the mean time, check out the forum here on FMH called Coaches Corner. There were some discussions started there that were based on concepts from his books. That may be a starting point for you.

 

[goomba]

That is great brother , and I really mean that !!!! BUT (and this is no reflection on you) do you not think that this should be done in our lodges ?That this is something your Master and officers should be offering to you and the Craft ?

We put Masons through the degrees and tell them "You want more enlightenment , then go into the YR/SR !" or say nothing at all and leave it up to themselves to stumble around in the dark .

As for what some think Masonic education consists of , I have heard numerous examples ...... The proper procedure of balloting , How to introduce special guests , How a Deacon/Steward is supposed to carry their staffs etc; etc; . NOT the education I have in mind !

I agree the lodge should be the place it is done. There is a difference between lodge protocol/maneuvers and education.

 

[Winter]

I think that is one of the main reasons that my posts are not plentiful lately is that I am not overly interested in the fluff and the deeper conversation gets tons of looks and few responses. They wind up being the same people posting and we already know how each other is gong to reply. LoL If i have ever come off as just trying to show off, I apologize. It wasn't my intent. Mostly I am hoping somebody will argue with me on a point so I can have a good discussion! But so few Masons today are well versed in the classical esoteric texts that it makes it difficult to have a traditional point/counterpoint debate style discussion that leads to some great brain sweat. This leaves the thread with a lecture style that is very off putting to many.

 

[Winter]

Case in point. A conversation starter about Eastern Thought and the Occult World.

http://www.freemasonhall.com/community/threads/eastern-thought-in-the-western-occult-world.4186/

139 unique views. 0 (zip, zilch, nadda) replies. There really is very little interest in esoteric/occult discussion in modern Freemasonry. And that is sad. Brothers ohh and ahh at Brother Ngay's talks, but how many really take the time to process the material and search out more self education opportunities? I am not trying to call these Brothers down for this. It is not just a Masonic issue, it is a societal issue.

 

[Windrider]

Each of us is on a different path. The vast majority of Freemasons will never sit in the Oriental Chair and there are a few who couldn't tell you where that chair is. That doesn't mean they are not good men. Forums like this one mean different things to different people. Some come here to simply relax and share their thoughts, concerns and celebrations. Others are looking for a deeper experience where they can find like minded brothers to discuss philosophy with. That's why there are different parts of the forums.

When I've spent my day in work watching my back, I might just want to watch some zombies on TV rather than try to sift through some 18th century Mason's book of flowery language. My 24 inch gauge slips sometime.

Each of us serves to the length of our cable-tows. I've never missed a meeting of my lodge or the Lodge of Instruction. I've risen through the chairs so rapidly that I've asked the Master and Senior Warden to not advance me any faster than the natural progression. I'm chair of the Widows program and have been asked to be the district Widows and Veteran's representative. I'm the lodge webmaster and one of the lodge ambassadors. I am Secretary/Treasurer of our district Lodge of Instruction. I simply don't have the energy to engage in the kind of discussions some of you enjoy. If that makes you feel I'm any less of a Mason, then follow me around for a month and see if you can keep up.

Oh, and by the way, this is all going on while I was in treatment for bladder cancer.

 

[Gary2112]

Each of us is on a different path. The vast majority of Freemasons will never sit in the Oriental Chair and there are a few who couldn't tell you where that chair is. That doesn't mean they are not good men. Forums like this one mean different things to different people. Some come here to simply relax and share their thoughts, concerns and celebrations. Others are looking for a deeper experience where they can find like minded brothers to discuss philosophy with. That's why there are different parts of the forums.

When I've spent my day in work watching my back, I might just want to watch some zombies on TV rather than try to sift through some 18th century Mason's book of flowery language. My 24 inch gauge slips sometime.

Each of us serves to the length of our cable-tows. I've never missed a meeting of my lodge or the Lodge of Instruction. I've risen through the chairs so rapidly that I've asked the Master and Senior Warden to not advance me any faster than the natural progression. I'm chair of the Widows program and have been asked to be the district Widows and Veteran's representative. I'm the lodge webmaster and one of the lodge ambassadors. I am Secretary/Treasurer of our district Lodge of Instruction. I simply don't have the energy to engage in the kind of discussions some of you enjoy. If that makes you feel I'm any less of a Mason, then follow me around for a month and see if you can keep up.

Oh, and by the way, this is all going on while I was in treatment for bladder cancer.

Brother Windrider,

No one ever said or implied that you were any less of a Mason. I'm not sure where that came from. I realize that you have had a lot on your plate. especially with your health. God knows we here have all prayed for you.

It appears as if you are a little irritated by this discussion, so let me turn the tables and use ME as the punching bag and or subject of this discussion if you will.

A little bit of history about me and my Masonic journey:

I was raised a few years ago. In my mother Lodge I found that there are plenty of Freemasons who have a great deal of zeal for charitable fundraisers, performing degree work (even though most don't know the ritual), and the general lets move through the chairs so I can be WM mentality.

I joined the fraternity not to be WM, or hold a chair, but to better myself as a man and to learn about the secrets that I had heard about Freemasonry. I was raised, and because of my quick learning of catechisms, I was pushed into a Steward chair and told that Masonry is about moving through the chairs to become master of the Lodge. I have absolutely, positively NO interest in that whatsoever. Nada... Zilch. That offended them greatly, as they were hoping for another parrot to perform lectures and ritual. I felt used and abused, so I left my Lodge a year and three months ago and haven't been back. I have found that just about every Lodge in my district has this mentality.

Before my departure, I had offered to assist my Lodge (and myself), by giving Masonic Education lectures. I was promptly put on a committee of 5 men who were supposed to help me (as a new Mason) provide these lectures. Guess what happened? I was set up to be a committee of ONE. I provided every single lecture for a year. It was met with utter silence from the brethren on the sidelines.

You may be asking yourself, what in the world did you discuss? I picked apart the very lectures that I had been taught, and interpreted their meaning. You know, the stuff the parrots pride themselves on being able to regurgitate word for word. I'll make a side note here and say that there is a huge difference between a parrot and a ritualist. Yes, I have developed an extensive Masonic library, but that did not help me learn what I know. 18th century tomes are nice to look at, but as Bro. Art DeHoyos says; They make great door stops.

My point being this; You don't have to spend hours looking at ancient texts to learn this stuff. The fact of the matter is that you already have the resources at your finger tips.

I too would rather watch a good show on TV, or read a fiction novel instead of reading a Masonic tome. The difference for me is that I like to have meaningful Masonic discourse with brethren who are interested in the same. It doesn't matter if I know much about the topic or not. The point is that I learn by engaging those who do know, and occasionally teaching THEM something in the process. I guess I was disillusioned as to what to expect once I joined a Lodge, so I found a place where there were good men to discuss these things with me instead. Sadly, the willingness of these men is very lacking for whatever reason. Just like in my Lodge experience.

 

[Ashlar2006]

Brother Gary stated it much better than I .

We are all busy , some busier than others . Many would probably demit if they had my Masonic schedule , Lord knows I have thought about it . As the head of two bodies and a GL officer , along with my duties as president/VP of clubs and boards , committees I sit on and other offices I hold in other bodies , I average 17 to 20 Masonic functions in one form or another a month . In one month not long ago I talked to my wife face to face TWICE . I am not bragging or trying to one up anyone , nor does being this active make ME a better Mason , it just shows I am too stupid to say NO . Being a very active Mason does not make one any better a Mason than an inactive one neither .

No one is saying that we have to sit , pouring over Masonic literature for hours on end . What I am saying is that we need to educate Masons . It can be as short and simple as a 5 minute talk on circumambulation . ANYTHING that would enlighten new and old Masons alike .

I once gave a quick talk on a subject and a 62 year Mason came up to me and stated "I did not know that !" . I can not go over it here , but it did feel good to shed some light to my brethren concerning something that they did not know before .

ETA: Also , when I started this thread , I used the ESOTERIC FREEMASONRY as an example . What I should have said is any thread that as a little more substance than subjects such as rings , license plates , lapel pins etc; etc; . It does not have to be that deep , just something with some meat on it's bones . Heck , I liked the "transgender" thread , it was at least interesting .

 

[Ashlar2006]

Okay Brethren , I want to make it a point to say I am not trying to alienate anyone here . I am looking for two things with this thread ONE) to create conversation , and TWO) to find a happy medium .

I am not saying that everyone MUST take part in the Esoteric Freemasonry section . What I am saying is not only do we need education in our lodges but here on this forum . If we continue to post nothing but "fluff" we lose great members such as Winter and Coach because they may lose interest and move on . We have the opportunity to do something great here , we have a medium where we can exchange ideas so let's make use of it . And in the process , we may find something that we may take back to our lodges .

For example , without getting to know Winter , I would never have given Emulation lodges a second thought and I would have never ordered a copy of an Emulation Ritual . After reading that ritual , I gained knowledge of how they do things and how they differ from my own lodge . And I would never have taken what I learned to my lodge and to my friends/brethren who found this very same information interesting .

 

[Windrider]

Case in point. A conversation starter about Eastern Thought and the Occult World.

http://www.freemasonhall.com/community/threads/eastern-thought-in-the-western-occult-world.4186/

139 unique views. 0 (zip, zilch, nadda) replies. There really is very little interest in esoteric/occult discussion in modern Freemasonry. And that is sad. Brothers ohh and ahh at Brother Ngay's talks, but how many really take the time to process the material and search out more self education opportunities? I am not trying to call these Brothers down for this. It is not just a Masonic issue, it is a societal issue.

One thing you seem to have overlooked here is that 139 people looked at it. If 10% of them clicked on the link, that's 14 men who learned something new.

 

[Josh]

ashlar, i'm 18, i get initiated on the 21'st of this month, when they asked me why do i want to join for the interview part, the first thing I said was i was to learn and better myself as a man, deep down i want to learn, i want to learn everything there is, thats why im joining, bettering myself will come with learning, also, a quick question to you ashlar because i see you all over these threads so i believe you know a lot, I've read/heard PA masons are different? how so? like i was reading the thread about "are you a traveling man", "are you traveling east" "how old is your grandmother" , and no masons i know here ever heard those, is there a reason?

 

[Gary2112]

One thing you seem to have overlooked here is that 139 people looked at it. If 10% of them clicked on the link, that's 14 men who learned something new.

No one would ever know if they learned anything or not. they kept their pie holes shut. Kinda silly on a discussion forum eh?