That too...
What do you want out of Masonry ?
- Thread starter Ashlar2006
- Start date
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
I actually can't understand why anyone would be against candidates seeing the degrees from the sidelines except if there is some Grand Lodge regulation or edict against it. If that's the case, he's right and I will not bring anybody to another lodge until they are raised.
The point of not wanting to have deep discussions about the esoteric aspects of the Craft is somewhat unfair. I have no issue with discussing the Middle Chamber Lecture but only in person with a known brother and privately. I used Albert Pike as an example. but let's take a look at a small sample what's being discussed in this forum now:
None of these is a topic for a man who does not have an interest in some pretty obscure topics. The lessons of the Middle Chamber are far more accessible but openly discussing them here violates my Obligation.
The point of not wanting to have deep discussions about the esoteric aspects of the Craft is somewhat unfair. I have no issue with discussing the Middle Chamber Lecture but only in person with a known brother and privately. I used Albert Pike as an example. but let's take a look at a small sample what's being discussed in this forum now:
None of these is a topic for a man who does not have an interest in some pretty obscure topics. The lessons of the Middle Chamber are far more accessible but openly discussing them here violates my Obligation.
LOL... You picked three of the more obscure topics to use as an example. Touche. The point I was making about the MC is not to discuss the ritual or the lecture itself. That would violate my OB as well. I see that you are not reading between the lines where I am going with this, so I will cease any further discussion with you on the matter. The rhetoric of failure is rampant here.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Seeing a degree in another jurisdiction could be confusing to a newer Brother without a fellow Brother to 'translate' for him.
I was invited to a MM in Illinois, I was intrigued by the similarities and the differences. I was sitting to the right of the WM as an honored guest, he and I exchanged insights as to those nuances.
I was invited to a MM in Illinois, I was intrigued by the similarities and the differences. I was sitting to the right of the WM as an honored guest, he and I exchanged insights as to those nuances.
That sounds like it was a splendid time. I agree that observing degrees in another jurisdiction may be confusing, but by allowing Brothers to observe degrees that they have already been through in their own jurisdiction it only serves to better impress those rituals upon them.
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
I agree totally! And the sooner the better after they themselves have gone through the degree so it is still fresh in their minds.
It was a great time and the WM is a Ren Faire friend & Widows Son Brother as well.
This is true Brother Bill. In fact, when I was an EA, I visited your Lodge to observe the degree.
It really does allow for more time to pay attention to the little details the degrees offer. The lecture portion was especially good. Each lecturer has a unique way of presenting the material, and I learned a great deal from the Brother who delivered it at your Lodge.
I think thats why so many Brothers really enjoy going to watch and participate in degree work.
It really does allow for more time to pay attention to the little details the degrees offer. The lecture portion was especially good. Each lecturer has a unique way of presenting the material, and I learned a great deal from the Brother who delivered it at your Lodge.
I think thats why so many Brothers really enjoy going to watch and participate in degree work.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
I get the feeling I've just been called stupid... The point I was making is that if you really want to have a free ranging conversation about the Middle Chamber or any of our Rituals, you can't do it here without "reading between the lines" which simply causes miscommunication. Yes, I picked the three least accessible topics but that wasn't too difficult. I'm a simple man and topics like those are simply not of interest to me. I think we agree that we are both good men and Masons. Last time I checked, I wasn't wearing a dunce cap and I don't think you are either. This topic started with a complaint that there is little interest in the esoteric topics in the forum. Seeing as we both know that's right, I was just trying to help you understand that although your zeal is laudable, these are not things that a lot of people who come here want to spend their time on.
Brother, the last thing I would call you is stupid. You have done your fair share of contribution to discussions here and I do respect your opinions.
It just seemed to me that we were not communicating effectively and that frustrated me. The reason it did was because you seemed to understand what I was trying to say but appeared to skirt that fact. I apologize if my remarks offended you.
It just blows my mind that the majority of Masons seem uninterested in the symbolism in our fraternity. And if they are, they are reluctant to talk about it which doesnt do much for learning rhetoric and developing the skills of discourse.
Ill let the topic go. I guess I joined the fraternity for the wrong reasons. Never in my life have I ever felt like an outcast minority in a group that prides itself on history of social discourse for the benefit of education.
No hard feelings I hope. Like I said, i enjoy talking with you on the forum. I guess this just happens to be a subject that Ill not get to discuss.
It just seemed to me that we were not communicating effectively and that frustrated me. The reason it did was because you seemed to understand what I was trying to say but appeared to skirt that fact. I apologize if my remarks offended you.
It just blows my mind that the majority of Masons seem uninterested in the symbolism in our fraternity. And if they are, they are reluctant to talk about it which doesnt do much for learning rhetoric and developing the skills of discourse.
Ill let the topic go. I guess I joined the fraternity for the wrong reasons. Never in my life have I ever felt like an outcast minority in a group that prides itself on history of social discourse for the benefit of education.
No hard feelings I hope. Like I said, i enjoy talking with you on the forum. I guess this just happens to be a subject that Ill not get to discuss.
Bob Franks
Past District Deputy Grand Lecturer
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
No offence taken. I should have put a smiley next to that comment, my apologies. There is, or at least there is in my jurisdiction, plenty of opportunity to discuss the most obscure, esoteric subjects imaginable. There are lodges of research, to lodges, and for those just starting out, masonic book clubs. The difference between the forums here and those venues is that we can look around the room for cowans and evesdroppers and know we can be clear with our brothers.
I come here for some stimulating conversation about Freemasonry. I belong to the Masonic book club to discuss the deeper meanings of our more private topics. Of the 165 or so members of my lodge, there are less than 10 who belong to the book club. Of the 35,000 Masons in Massachusetts less than one hundred belong to the lodge of research. You are a rare and precious brother and I hope you can find what you're looking for. I just don't think this is the place to look.
Windrider
Plus-sized tuxedo model
I agree in principal, but part of my Obligation is to obey the rules of my Grand Lodge. If this guy is right and there is an edict prohibiting visitation by EAs and FCs, the only thing I can do is bring it up to the Grand Master for his judgement.
While I agree about the cowan's and eavesdroppers, the topics discussed here do not violate my jurisdictions laws or my OB. That's not to say that the subject matter isn't objectionable somewhere else. The principals of Freemasonry are not Masonic secrets (where I am), the ritual itself is. YMMV on that.
What perplexes me is that we seem to have "Masonic Buffalo" who were very active in these discussions here, and now it no longer seems to exist. There are educational threads that I, and others have started that go on for a dozen pages of dialogue. Other Masonic forums seem to have no problem getting members to talk on these or even more controversial subjects. I just do not understand why it doesn't happen here (even on a minor scale).
You have no idea how much of a turn off it is for me to see yet another fluff thread on rings or stuff like that. It's certainly not stimulating for me. Truth be told, it is more nauseating than anything. There is no variety here, just the mundane bravo sierra. Most of the time you can hardly tell it is a Masonic forum by the topics discussed. Maybe you could help shed some light on why you think that this forum doesn't have that sort of dialogue. You visit other forums, so I'm curious as to what you think.
This is true, but I've never heard of such a ruling before. It would seem absurd that a GM would issue an edict preventing a Brother from attending a degree that he has already received! To me that makes absolutely no sense. Of course, there are GM's out there who issue edicts just because they can, not because they are for the good of the Craft or make any sense for that matter.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
Something I may have missed , but the thing about an edict or resolution issued by a sitting Grand Master is this , they are only good for the year the GM is in office UNLESS the craft votes to adopt them to be added to the constitution at the GL session when he is going out of office .
A GM in 1953 may well have handed down such an edict , but when he went out of office , that edict went out with him and is no longer in effect . I honestly can not see the Grand Body (The Craft) adopting such an edict to be added to the constitution .
But then again , other jurisdictions may work differently than my own , so theres that too .
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A GM in 1953 may well have handed down such an edict , but when he went out of office , that edict went out with him and is no longer in effect . I honestly can not see the Grand Body (The Craft) adopting such an edict to be added to the constitution .
But then again , other jurisdictions may work differently than my own , so theres that too .
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Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
To add to this to a constitution or become a permanent law .... There are two ways (in my jurisdiction) that this can be done . As I stated above , the Craft votes to adopt it , and add it to the constitution . OR each new Grand Master wishes to extend the edict during their term . An edict by a GM must be issued (and re-issued by each new GM) to each lodge in writing and read (sometime up to three times ) at stated meetings and again , this is in my jurisdiction .
To make this law means that a GM has the power to change a constitution when ever he wishes . As far as I know , no GM has that power . This is why they use the power of edicts and resolutions during their terms .
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
One last thing , READ YOUR CONSTITUTION !!! IF it forbids EAs and FCs from attending degree work in other lodges then the Master is correct in forbidding it . If it IS NOT in the constitution , then he does not have a (Masonic) legal leg to stand on .
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
When I was pre-MM, my Lodge mentor was also my DDGM, so he & I traveled together. Now that I am an MM, I hope to take our new MMs up to the EAA MM degree. The Oshkosh Lodge holds a MM every year on the Wednesday of AirVenture. So you can meet Brothers from all over the country. Typically, the GL officers perform the ritual.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
Do not mean to harp on this , but far to many give the Master (and GMs for that matter) of the lodge WAY to much power . Yes the Master has the final say in his lodge AS LONG as it does not violate , go against or trump the By-laws of your lodge or the Constitution of your jurisdiction . I have called down Masters for this and in my first year as Master , I was called out on it , I told someone they could not do something when they could (according to the constitution) .
We all live and die as Members by your by-laws and constitution .
We all live and die as Members by your by-laws and constitution .