MM Topic The song remains the same...

[removed12612]

Simple. You leave him at the source of the water and let him do whatever he wants. But then, our job isn't to make the horse drink. It's to show him that the water is there.

OK... I am out of horse analogies.......

I just find it hard to label who is working harder than another in their journeys, some on their journey may have short maps and others may have long winding paths that take them down many roads.....and in making the claim that M/E is failing on a broad scale.....maybe the esoteric aspect is, that I will concede..... but is the esoteric side the more important??....masonry teaches many different things.... For me, I do believe we must guard the West Gate ( KoTN) very well..... how that is done...well, until masonry gets to a level that is a more standard across the board, the gate will be defended in many ways....

 

[Gary]

You are out of horse analogies because I made a valid point. Granted, there are those who want to explore the esoteric side of Freemasonry, and there are those who take the superficial lessons and are satisfied.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that as a whole, Freemasonry is lacking in the mentoring of it's Brethren. How can an apprentice learn his craft if he doesn't know what's available to him to accomplish his goals? He doesn't know what his choices are.

I'm merely pointing out that we should be showing them what their options are with a little more than "Ritual alludes to this or that". Some are only exposed to this allegory during their degrees. After that, it's never spoken of again because they are off to sit in Lodge and vote on the budget. That to me, is a great injustice.

 

[removed12612]

You are out of horse analogies because I made a valid point

And I agreed.....

The whole point of this thread was to point out that as a whole, Freemasonry is lacking in the mentoring of it's Brethren. How can an apprentice learn his craft if he doesn't know what's available to him to accomplish his goals? He doesn't know what his choices are.

I agree, but is he not accomplishing the goal if he doesnt take advantage of the options???

I'm merely pointing out that we should be showing them what their options are with a little more than "Ritual alludes to this or that". Some are only exposed to this allegory during their degrees. After that, it's never spoken of again because they are off to sit in Lodge and vote on the budget. That to me, is a great injustice.

And...agree...again,

 

[Gary]

I agree, but is he not accomplishing the goal if he doesnt take advantage of the options???

He is accomplishing his goal whether he takes advantage of the options or not. Why? because he was given the options and he made the choice that was best suited for him. Which is vastly different than not being given the list of options in the first place.

 

[removed12612]

He is accomplishing his goal whether he takes advantage of the options or not. Why? because he was given the options and he made the choice that was best suited for him. Which is vastly different than not being given the list of options in the first place.

Nice......I knew if I prodded you long enough, you would come out with a good "nugget" ........ BTW, have you checked out Bro. Hodapps website???... I immediately though of you when I read the blog

http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2011/09/call-for-articles-masonic-society.html

 

[Gary]

I thought I was producing some good nuggets all along!

Coincidentally, I recently joined the TMS. Looking at their requirements for submissions, I may have to step up my game a bit. I was reading threads on their forum the other day, and a Brother had posted his article for feedback before submitting it.

Let's just say he got more than he bargained for. They (the forum members) tore it apart. TMS has strict requirements. They don't like it if your paper has too many quotes from other sources, which his paper apparently did. They want more original work.

Truthfully, I'd be a little apprehensive to submit to them at this stage of my development as a writer. Maybe sometime in the future I'll send them something. In the mean time, I'm enjoying what I'm learning there. It's a great resource for those who like Masonic research.

 

[FF Sparky]

I thought I was producing some good nuggets all along!

Coincidentally, I recently joined the TMS. Looking at their requirements for submissions, I may have to step up my game a bit. I was reading threads on their forum the other day, and a Brother had posted his article for feedback before submitting it.

Let's just say he got more than he bargained for. They (the forum members) tore it apart. TMS has strict requirements. They don't like it if your paper has too many quotes from other sources, which his paper apparently did. They want more original work.

Truthfully, I'd be a little apprehensive to submit to them at this stage of my development as a writer. Maybe sometime in the future I'll send them something. In the mean time, I'm enjoying what I'm learning there. It's a great resource for those who like Masonic research.

Im a member of TMS also, the articles are very good, and so are the posts, but there is a wide variety of opinion there, some I dont agree with, especially from one member there who keeps pushing Freemasonry as alchemy based

 

[Duncan1574]

I will second that...... but you may be able to lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink......the question then is.... what do you do with the horse that doesnt want to drink.....

If they don't drink, they may not be thirsty OR they don't recognize it for what it is: a source of life. We gain knowledge in different ways, perhaps the knowledge has to be presented to that Brother in a different way for him to desire it.

What's your style?

Three Different Learning Styles

 

[Gary]

Im a member of TMS also, the articles are very good, and so are the posts, but there is a wide variety of opinion there, some I dont agree with, especially from one member there who keeps pushing Freemasonry as alchemy based

I've seen his posts. He is from my jurisdiction. I'm not in agreement with most all of what he has to say. Apparently neither are most of the the members on TMS.

 

[Blue Logan]

You are out of horse analogies because I made a valid point. Granted, there are those who want to explore the esoteric side of Freemasonry, and there are those who take the superficial lessons and are satisfied.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that as a whole, Freemasonry is lacking in the mentoring of it's Brethren. How can an apprentice learn his craft if he doesn't know what's available to him to accomplish his goals? He doesn't know what his choices are.

I'm merely pointing out that we should be showing them what their options are with a little more than "Ritual alludes to this or that". Some are only exposed to this allegory during their degrees. After that, it's never spoken of again because they are off to sit in Lodge and vote on the budget. That to me, is a great injustice.

This thread is by far of the most interest to me. There are so many resources available for one to acquire more knowledge, yet there are no mentors to help guide direction and choices. As an older MM this personal journey has led me first to the Master Craftsman Program (for which I am eternally grateful) and to other quality papers, books, articles, forums, and etc., yet my greatest fear is that in my remaining years I will have spent valuable time searching for answers and insights that could have been better pursued through association with like-minded Brothers.
Your thoughts and exchanges give me hope that I will live to see the day when I am led to the water......... and I WILL DRINK from it's source. I thank each of you for your input. The differences shared serve to strengthen similarities from which to build upon.
The esoteric side of Freemasonry strikes a cord within me that attracts my souls search for Harmony,Truth and Light. Thanks Brothers!

 

[Gary]

Brother, I'm glad you found the thread interesting. Thank you for the kind words.

 

[Ashlar2006]

Like Blue Logan , I too found this thread extremely interesting . This is why I stepped back from posting and merely read .

 

[Gary]

It's a funny thing when threads are started like these. You never know how they will turn out. As you've noticed, I'm not afraid to jump into the mud puddle with both feet.

I was beginning to wonder though. Generally when people look at a thread and choose not to post, it means they wouldn't touch the topic with a ten foot pole.

 

[FF Sparky]

That may be why the SR took off in popularity. It would seem that Pike re-wrote ritual, to try and get others to see what they were missing by not studying what they already had in their Craft Lodges. Funny thing is that he found that the same thing happens no matter what 'forum' the Ritual is presented in. That would have been a good reason for him to limit the publication of his books to the circle of Masons who were actively interested in such study and discourse.

Or did SR gain popularity because at one time you had to be a MM and SR/YR to join the Shriners? and not because of the ritual?

 

[Gary]

Or did SR gain popularity because at one time you had to be a MM and SR/YR to join the Shriners? and not because of the ritual?

The Shriners were and still are known not for their ritual, but for their booze ups/ children's charities. Back in the baby boomer days, you had men joining Freemasonry just to get into the Shriners. Not just the YR/SR. That's another topic entirely.

I don't think the popularity of the SR has anything to do with the Shriners.

 

[removed12612]

Jumping in mud puddles is one of my favorite things to do.....BOTH feet!!!....

I am 99.9999% Kinesthetic Learner..... so my journey has been very tricky so far....

 

[Zack]

At one time it was necessary to belong to SR or YR, or both, to be a Shriner so I think that it did play a big part in the "popularity" of SR.

 

[FF Sparky]

At one time it was necessary to belong to SR or YR, or both, to be a Shriner so I think that it did play a big part in the "popularity" of SR.

thats what I was trying to say, I dont know if it was from the same time period or not, but both were around at the same time. And it was required that a man had to be a MM, and a member of SR or YR to be a Shriner, then they dropped that rule and you just needed to be a MM. I'm just saying the it may be the reason for the popularity growth in the SR, and not because of the rituals. Tho I hope it would have been for the rituals.

 

[Gary]

At one time it was necessary to belong to SR or YR, or both, to be a Shriner so I think that it did play a big part in the "popularity" of SR.

thats what I was trying to say, I dont know if it was from the same time period or not, but both were around at the same time. And it was required that a man had to be a MM, and a member of SR or YR to be a Shriner, then they dropped that rule and you just needed to be a MM. I'm just saying the it may be the reason for the popularity growth in the SR, and not because of the rituals. Tho I hope it would have been for the rituals.

I still don't think it made the SR popular. It their numbers grew, but only because it was a stepping stone for those that wanted in to the Shrine.

I know I'm arguing semantics, but popularity of the SR and increase of member rolls are two different things. If you wanted to be accurate, one could ask how many members actively participated in the SR (or YR) during that period once they got what they wanted ( a pass to the Shrine).

Again, this leads us off topic.

 

[removed12612]

I still don't think it made the SR popular. It their numbers grew, but only because it was a stepping stone for those that wanted in to the Shrine.

I know I'm arguing semantics, but popularity of the SR and increase of member rolls are two different things. If you wanted to be accurate, one could ask how many members actively participated in the SR (or YR) during that period once they got what they wanted ( a pass to the Shrine).

Again, this leads us off topic.

Never!!!......