removed12612
Guest
I do wonder why Pike said that there was little M/E at his time??? Other than opinion....
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
I dunno, Gary; maybe we need to look for Freemasonry within ourselves instead of trying to force the institution to be something it probably never really was.
BukeyeJackson
ViMH Advisory Board
I beleive...
...that our little *Guild* is growing. I'm new here, in terms of some of your join dates, and I found this forum by searching for answers. I've met younger Brothers who are coming in and doing the same. Some of the guys my age who are joining I talk to need something more Level and Square with all the BS going on these days. Then we reconnect to the interwebs and probe. If not for you guys and the extra Light you provided I would have missed a few chances to bring others the same.
I've even been tasked with and article on Bro. Coach's book series for my Lodge's TB because I'm talking to those who will listen about what we thought we were coming into. Then the ears perk and want more. Well I talk about some good Brethren from other Lodges and some sources and some books I've been reading. It's working I feel.
...that our little *Guild* is growing. I'm new here, in terms of some of your join dates, and I found this forum by searching for answers. I've met younger Brothers who are coming in and doing the same. Some of the guys my age who are joining I talk to need something more Level and Square with all the BS going on these days. Then we reconnect to the interwebs and probe. If not for you guys and the extra Light you provided I would have missed a few chances to bring others the same.
I've even been tasked with and article on Bro. Coach's book series for my Lodge's TB because I'm talking to those who will listen about what we thought we were coming into. Then the ears perk and want more. Well I talk about some good Brethren from other Lodges and some sources and some books I've been reading. It's working I feel.
Winter
I've been here before
The heart of a man is judged by his actions.
If he does the bare minimum to belong and goes no further but trumpets his association, I judge his reasons for joining improper.
And your statements about Masonic buildings and Brothers attachment to these structures, no matter how lovely, is one of the most serious problems we face and will continue to hold us back.
You say we shouldn't strive for a more ideal Masonry because it probably never existed? I say that this struggle is the same one fought for in Pike's day and before, and just because we haven't reached that ideal previously is no reason not to continue trying. I refuse to accept that. And any Brother who does not want to fight for that perfection of our Craft is welcome to stay out of my way.
removed12612
Guest
I just wonder how we can judge another Brothers actions as to not being Laudable....just because they do not walk in the same steps as another..... would you want a Brother with more M/E telling you that you have not done enough and you shouldnt be there.Maybe that Brother has done the work that his journey has required of him...Is he wrong??? Masonry has many different meanings to people.... some feel the need or desire to dive deep into the esoteric side...other do not..... which is the correct masonry.....When we try to define what is right or wrong in masonry as a whole then maybe we should look first at ourselves and see if we (ourselves) have made the right choice.......Very few things within masonry are absolute...... so how do we look at another Brother a pass judgement??? When you or I have not perfected our ashlars.....
Winter
I've been here before
We should always keep pushing each other to do more and be better. I don't know where this idea that "whatever a Brother wants to do is just fine" came from, but I don't see it as healthy.
There are a lot of Brothers who know more and have done more than I have in the order. I would expect one of these Brothers to tell me if I was slacking off and not doing all I could.
There are a lot of Brothers who know more and have done more than I have in the order. I would expect one of these Brothers to tell me if I was slacking off and not doing all I could.
removed12612
Guest
Never heard this one.....
All I am saying since this thread is about Pike and M/E...... and the education one gets from masonry varies from Brother to Brother..... some of the basic and simple lessons may be exactly what that Brother needs.....All I am saying is that there is no standard as to what is correct when it comes to M/E.....As long as the Brother chips continuously away at his Ashlar then he is still on the right path.....how fast or how much they chip away is a personal journey unto them alone.....
G
Gary
Guest
Well, unless you can find a way to ask him directly, We are left with opinions on the matter. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read his work and make a fairly informed interpretation of it's meaning. based on the quotes I have provided, what do YOU think he was eluding to? I value your opinion...
I agree that we should look within ourselves. The problem still remains that the institution continues to try and subdue our rights/light. If we can't express our portion of Masonry within the Craft, then what are we left with? I disagree with you on the point that we are trying to change something back to what it never was. Our fraternity was founded upon Masonic discourse.
I agree that our little guild is growing.
Brother Winter,
I think Bro. Patrick has some valid points in his argument (I don't agree with all of them). The common theme seems to be improving mentoring of candidates and providing more structure, so that they have more quality resources to improve themselves in Masonry internally and externally.
Doing this will guard the Western gate far more effectively than we have in the past.
I am in agreement that we don't need fancy buildings. Bro. Patrick seems to feel the same way I believe.
To that end, what can we do to improve our current situation without waging war with our Brethren? So far we have segregated ourselves to groups and even different style Lodges. While I certainly can appreciate those things for what they are; Are we best serving the interests and unity of the fraternity?
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Thanks for the kind words, Bro. Gary. I appreciate them.
Now here's something I can hop right aboard with you. I see our Grand Lodges continuing (over great amounts of time) to make decisions that get right in the way of the individual Lodge running its own business. How to stop this, or even reverse the trend is something I've thought about long and hard, but to date haven't come up with a decent answer.
You're right. We don't need them. But many of us have them and some of them (if not most of them) are special enough to be preserved and kept in Masonic hands.
Good question . I have no answers for you, but that's a dandy question.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Ah. And is he also welcome to get in your face and argue his point with you? Your version of perfection is yours. It may not be everyone's.
Winter
I've been here before
Go ahead. What have you got? It would be a heck of a lot better than the apathy that so many Masons seem to be happy with.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
What have I got? I've already been giving you what I have.
G
Gary
Guest
I most certainly sympathise with your passion on the matter, but I seriously doubt that going nose to nose in argument will solve anything. In fact, It will likely cause a greater problem for the cause.
I think that by discussing the issue as much as we do, it brings it to light to more like minded Brethren. I know, "talk is cheap", but repetition is the key to success. We can't be willing to give up because we are tired of repating ourselves.
My opinion is that we are making headway. Little steps at a time, but it is happening. It seems that just a few months ago, there were fewer Masons that even knew about the problem. Even fewer that were stepping up in their respective Lodges to make any changes in the way Masonic education is perceived. That is changing. Look at the younger Brothers who are members here. They are also helping our cause!
while that alone won't be an instant broad sweeping change for the fraternity, one Lodge at a time, we are making a difference.
What's more, is that those Brothers who are doing this are also learning and growing as Masons. We are stepping up and writing papers and publishing them abroad in the various Masonic Periodicals. I know, because I'm one of them. My topics are specifically written to address these issues we face.
The more the material is out there, the more chance we have to get the mindset to change. That in turn allows for other changes to occur.
I may not be an official member of the KoTN, but I can assure you that I, and those like me are certainly Squires carrying the shields into battle. I'm sure that you have read Sun Tsu's the Art of War. His tactics are in play here whether they are visible or not.
This issue, and those like them cannot be resolved by head on engagement.
G
Gary
Guest
Yes you have. DISCOURSE! None of us have all the answers, but it's differences of view and opinions like this that help us gain a better grasp on what we can do to make things better for every man in the fraternity. not just the majority.
I chuckle to myself when you and Bro. Winter go at it. You both are very passionate Masons. We just have to remember that we are on the same team sometimes.
Sorting through the conversation, it would appear that although there are differences of opinion; we aren't in total disagreement with what needs to be done.
removed12612
Guest
Ok...I am not a rocket scientist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn.... and I will say this about interpretations..... to some they are gospel and to others they are junk.... its all in how much value or faith you put into someone else interpretations....
As to what do I think he was eluding to.......I have no idea....and I doubt he really did either...... I think he wrote his OPINIONS based on what he thought masonry should be and was possibly not happy that his ideas didnt stick as well as others......
Again.... this is the interpretations of ONE person.....
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Oh, yeah, Gary. Nobody has all the answers. In fact, I only have questions. I like to needle Winter a little because I know he can take it. And no, we're not in disagreement about what needs to be done, just how it needs to be done!
removed12612
Guest
Answers in masonry........ hmmmmmmm......... now thats something elusive!! There may not be any/many set and steadfast answers in masonry since it is an individual journey..... when you can have two people look at the same thing and not see it the same, then how can you have a definite answer. Is it right to say that what brothers is getting out of masonry is not the lessons that are for him??? If we do, then are we to shape the Ashlar for him as well???
G
Gary
Guest
While it is true that there may be more than one interpretation of our symbols, our place is not to define them for any Brother. We should however, be pointing out that there are things worthy of their investigation and assisting in their Masonic development by effective mentoring.
removed12612
Guest
I will second that...... but you may be able to lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink......the question then is.... what do you do with the horse that doesnt want to drink.....
G
Gary
Guest
Simple. You leave him at the source of the water and let him do whatever he wants. But then, our job isn't to make the horse drink. It's to show him that the water is there.