Hiram Abiff

[CoachN]

It also begs the question, why would the early fathers of Freemasonry create the the Hiramic Legend? Is it merely a morality play or is there much more to it?

It's a carefully Crafted final exam to see it FCs have Raised themselves or if their Brothers have Raised them. (Typically the latter condition brings about failure.)

If they take the allegory literally, they failed. If they understand the meaning behind the figures of speech, the metaphors and the analogies of the overall allegory, then they pass.

Some say Hiram Abiff comes from the old French word Biffet, meaning eliminated or eliminate. Hiram Abiff to some means Hiram the eliminated.

It mean "my Brother is exalted (raised)" + "he is my learned teacher."

[/diatribe begins]How do we talk about this without revealing too much?

Speak in allegory...

...Hiram Abif is NOT raised from the dead.

YES! You are correct (if you are talking about his dead rotting body.)

BUT, it's an allegory and hence, we must ask ourselves: What was factually Raised?

Only God can do that.

Ya might wanna reread those Scriptures Brother Patrick...

MATTHEW 10:5;8 NKJ
5 These 12 Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows:
8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

* Jesus told His disciples they were to teach others to do everything He had commanded them -- even to the end of the age.

Some other really neat references: Raising The Dead

Hiram's dead body is taken from the grave and moved to a new resting place in Jerusalem. Had Hiram been brought back, he would not have been reburied.

YUP!

...I hate to be such a stick-in-the-mud about this issue, but my Lodge lost an otherwise good Brother over this. His church could point to a website that claimed to speak for a Masonic jurisdiction (indeed it did - it was a GL website). On that website, they wrote about the Hiramic Legend and purported that Hiram was raised from the dead by King Solomon. The church in question came down hard on my former Brother, as they knew he was a Mason. Even though I, and others from my Lodge, assured him that Hiram's body had merely been moved, this argument could not sway his church. The Brother, following his Masonic obligation to be true to his faith, resigned from Freemasonry.

I see that he failed the final exam...

How can a Brother , who went through the MM degree , not know this ?

Easily. If he didn't do his EA and FC Work, this would be a natural consequence.

...Darn, I NOW wish that we had a tyled forum so that we could talk about this in detail.

Me Too!

...In the end, "What does this mean"? It means what the pictures in our head and our own subconsiouses tell us it means.

Agreed! That's why our EA and FC Training is critical. If you don;t do it, you rely upon chaos to sort out the Light coming in and the Light (and the Brother) simply gets lost!

Well, you know what they say about a man with large feet ... big shoes.

Yup. He has a big understanding!

 

[Gary]

Hmmm...Sounds like a conversation I had with a Brother recently. Did I mention how much I love it when you share little pearls like that?

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I see that he failed the final exam...

Whaaaa? Choosing your faith over Freemasonry is failing the final exam? I'm sad I lost a Lodge Brother over this misunderstanding, but in my opinion he made the truly Masonic choice: he was presented with a choice of his faith or his Lodge and he picked his faith.

Ya might wanna reread those Scriptures Brother Patrick...

MATTHEW 10:5;8 NKJ
5 These 12 Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows:
8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

* Jesus told His disciples they were to teach others to do everything He had commanded them -- even to the end of the age.

But they did it on the instructions of Jesus and by the power of G-d. How many of the dead have YOU raised lately.

 

[Duncan1574]

[snip]
But they did it on the instructions of Jesus and by the power of G-d. How many of the dead have YOU raised lately.

Have you been around my day job at closing time or payday?

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Have you been around my day job at closing time or payday?

They just seem dead, Dunc. They just seem dead.

 

[Gary]

But they did it on the instructions of Jesus and by the power of G-d. How many of the dead have YOU raised lately.

Actually, I've raised quite a few. Mind you they were clinically dead, and not biologically dead...but jes sayin'. A defibrillator and Epinephrine work wonders on some folks.

 

[Duncan1574]

They just seem dead, Dunc. They just seem dead.

Zombies? Boy that does explain the last potluck. (Are those lady fingers, not sure who there from).

 

[BG_TRBL]

wtf is goonie -gooo-goo

ice cream truck, ice cream truck, i want some ice cream

 

[CoachN]

Whaaaa? Choosing your faith over Freemasonry is failing the final exam? I'm sad I lost a Lodge Brother over this misunderstanding, but in my opinion he made the truly Masonic choice: he was presented with a choice of his faith or his Lodge and he picked his faith.

And that is exactly my point my Brother.

• A Brother who passes understands that the choice that was offered is not a mutually exclusive "either/or" one and that the reality offered to him is a false one. Brothers who pass think "clearly, accurately and rationally" for themselves. They instantly recognize the rhetoric before them as illogical and irrational because they have been trained Masonicly to spot such things. It also indicates that we as his Brothers did indeed put him through his Raising prematurely. In this respect, we failed him too!
• A Brother that fails 1) didn't get the lessons that Masonic instruction offers and 2) actually believes that what was put before him was a mutually exclusive choice when it actuality was not. The images presented within the 2nd part of the 3rd Degree are but shadows cast upon a cave wall. If a Brother cannot see past the shadows cast, he is still chained to the cave wall.

But they did it on the instructions of Jesus and by the power of G-d. How many of the dead have YOU raised lately.

Every time I get out of bed my Brother. Every time!

But seriously Brother Patrick. We have so many layers going on at once. Much evidence points to the phrase "raising the dead" as a metaphor for exactly what was previously addressed herein. Is a Brother dead or alive (as in, can they see past the shadows to the source of them, or not?) This phrase has many levels of meaning and I elect that meaning that is most significant to the matters at hand - is this person in front of me dead or alive in spirit and what can I do to assist him toward being alive?

 

[Gary]

<pulls up a chair and grabs some popcorn> This is gonna get good....

<And for those of you with ADD, let's keep the commercial interruptions to a minimum please> I want to see how this conversation pans out.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

<pulls up a chair and grabs some popcorn> This is gonna get good....

<And for those of you with ADD, let's keep the commercial interruptions to a minimum please> I want to see how this conversation pans out.

Well, Jeeze, Gary ... in that case I can't say anything at all.

 

[Gary]

We finally get two respected brothers here to discuss (albeit in allegory) a VERY interesting topic, and you are going to clam up?

Disappointing for sure. But it's your choice.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

And that is exactly my point my Brother.

[*]A Brother who passes understands that the choice that was offered is not a mutually exclusive "either/or" one and that the reality offered to him is a false one. Brothers who pass think "clearly, accurately and rationally" for themselves. They instantly recognize the rhetoric before them as illogical and irrational because they have been trained Masonicly to spot such things. It also indicates that we as his Brothers did indeed put him through his Raising prematurely. In this respect, we failed him too![*]A Brother that fails 1) didn't get the lessons that Masonic instruction offers and 2) actually believes that what was put before him was a mutually exclusive choice when it actuality was not. The images presented within the 2nd part of the 3rd Degree are but shadows cast upon a cave wall. If a Brother cannot see past the shadows cast, he is still chained to the cave wall.

Sorry, my Brother, but you don't know the whole story here. It was, indeed, mutually exclusive. His Church told him that he had to disassociate himself with either us or them. Now, as much as this Brother could recognize the illogic of the situation, as much as we tried to show him "the shadows on the cave wall", in the end it came down to a simple choice: to continue being an active member of his faith, or to continue being a Freemason. My choice would have been different: I would have found a new church home. His choice was based on what he felt was right in his heart. It's never as simple as, "if you don't see it my way, you've somehow missed the lesson". This Brother was not failed by the fraternity and he did not fail us. In fact, he made a very Masonic choice: G-d over everything.

Every time I get out of bed my Brother. Every time!

LOLOL! Boy, do I know that one!

But seriously Brother Patrick. We have so many layers going on at once. Much evidence points to the phrase "raising the dead" as a metaphor for exactly what was previously addressed herein. Is a Brother dead or alive (as in, can they see past the shadows to the source of them, or not?) This phrase has many levels of meaning and I elect that meaning that is most significant to the matters at hand - is this person in front of me dead or alive in spirit and what can I do to assist him toward being alive?

Sure, but that is really not part of the Hiramic legend. Hiram died and remained dead. We have the ability to use his death, through the lessons his death teaches, to improve our lives. Blahblahblah blahblah. But none of this is really to the point of our discussion. My Brother made a truly Masonic choice: when given the ultimatum of "faith or the fraternity" he chose faith. Very Hiramic, very Masonic, no?

 

[PatrickWilliams]

We finally get two respected brothers here to discuss (albeit in allegory) a VERY interesting topic, and you are going to clam up?

Disappointing for sure. But it's your choice.

I am not a clam. I will go on at length about any topic, whether I know anything about it or not.

 

[Gary]

For the sake of discussion, you said that the brother in question chose his faith over the fraternity. His faith never changed, he elected to stay with the church he was attending?

I am going to draw some quick conclusions here in the form of questions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) His clergy told him that he had a choice to make?
2) He believes that the clergy personal opinion is Canon law for the religion. Therefore he must leave the fraternity in order to save face with the church?

Faith is not bound by walls just as our fraternity is not bound to a Lodge building. Simply put...if you aren't happy in the building move to another one.

Like you, I would have went church shopping. Same faith....Different building.

If my conclusions are correct, the brother in question made a drastic move just to "fit in" with those that attend/ lead his church building.

It's not a matter of God over fraternity if that was indeed the situation. It amounts to peer pressure pure and simple.

Of course, I may be off track here and there may be other circumstances.

 

[removed12612]

I feel for the Brother that was put in a situation his church put him in and admit, it was a tough situation. I think he did give into peer pressure from his clergy and their opinions. I wonder if it is the teachings of his church or the beliefs of the members of that particular church(building).

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Yep. Peer pressure. But if he had abandoned his church to stay a Mason, that ALSO could be described as folding under peer pressure. Just depends on who you look at as your peers and which peers mean most to you.

Every Masonic obligation I have taken assures me that there is nothing contained therein that conflicts with any other obligation I owe to G-d, my nation, my neighbors or myself. But the nameless Brother in question was not so fortunate: his religion, therefore his association with G-d, insisted that there was a conflict, and enough of a conflict that he had to choose one or the other. Please note that in the list of who we don't have conflicts with, the Lodge is never mentioned. You owe your allegiances to G-d, your nation, your neighbor and yourself first and foremost (and in that order, too, btw). Nowhere in Masonry do we ever obligate ourselves to stay with the Lodge if our obligations conflict with anything else.

Freemasonry is an option, not a requirement. If it causes conflict in your life, then (ultimately) our Fraternity is disposable. My Brother unfortunately got caught in a situation where the Lodge conflicted with his faith. What obligation was he supposed to uphold?

 

[Gary]

Like I said, there may be other circumstances. It happens more often than not, to be peer pressure and the members of a church pushing their opinions as law.

It has nothing to do with faith. In support of what Coach was saying, it could have been very possible that the brother "failed" to recognize that difference.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Like I said, there may be other circumstances. It happens more often than not, to be peer pressure and the members of a church pushing their opinions as law.

It has nothing to do with faith. In support of what Coach was saying, it could have been very possible that the brother "failed" to recognize that difference.

It could have been possible, indeed. But his minister instructed him: us or them. Believe me, Gary, I had looooonnnnggg discussions with this Brother. In the end, his faith could not be moved and it was his faith. This is not a matter of Patrick misunderstanding what was going on (though, Lord knows, there are enough times when Patrick does not understand what's going on). I counseled this Brother expansively and over time regarding this. Ultimately he made a choice and I still insist that he made a true Masonic choice: faith over everything.

 

[CoachN]

Sorry, my Brother, but you don't know the whole story here.

So true! (But I have seen enough in life to understand the dynamics at play )

It was, indeed, mutually exclusive. His Church told him that he had to disassociate himself with either us or them. Now, as much as this Brother could recognize the illogic of the situation, as much as we tried to show him "the shadows on the cave wall", in the end it came down to a simple choice: to continue being an active member of his faith, or to continue being a Freemason.

I understand your rational, the story line and I continue to state unequivocally that it was not a choice between "being an active member of his faith" and membership in Freemasonry. It was a choice between his Church and his Lodge.

My choice would have been different: I would have found a new church home.

See! You passed the test!

His choice was based on what he felt was right in his heart.

Yes. But it was not one based in Faith. It was based upon association.

It's never as simple as, "if you don't see it my way, you've somehow missed the lesson". This Brother was not failed by the fraternity and he did not fail us.

I do not believe I stated or implied that he failed us. If anything, I believe he failed himself.

In fact, he made a very Masonic choice: G-d over everything.

We're going to have to differ on this. His "god" was not one of Faith. It was one of "association." Based upon all that you have conveyed, I do not believe that the one true God you refer to was the focus of his decision.

LOLOL! Boy, do I know that one!

Sure, but that is really not part of the Hiramic legend. Hiram died and remained dead.

Well, his body, yes. But that point is left to the observer to conclude.

We have the ability to use his death, through the lessons his death teaches, to improve our lives. Blahblahblah blahblah.

Yep!

But none of this is really to the point of our discussion.

Oh Oh! (Coach braces himself for what is to follow....)

My Brother made a truly Masonic choice: when given the ultimatum of "faith or the fraternity" he chose faith. Very Hiramic, very Masonic, no?

I don't thinks so. As stated before, I don't believe Faith was the issue here. He allowed his need for association to override the true issues on the table. He folded to the demands of social pressure, his Ruffians convinced him to give up his Word and that is not taught in any Masonic circles. If anything, Masonry teaches us to hold to our Word regardless of any pressures if our Word is true.

For the sake of discussion, you said that the brother in question chose his faith over the fraternity. His faith never changed, he elected to stay with the church he was attending?

I am going to draw some quick conclusions here in the form of questions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) His clergy told him that he had a choice to make?
2) He believes that the clergy personal opinion is Canon law for the religion. Therefore he must leave the fraternity in order to save face with the church?

Faith is not bound by walls just as our fraternity is not bound to a Lodge building. Simply put...if you aren't happy in the building move to another one.

Like you, I would have went church shopping. Same faith....Different building.

If my conclusions are correct, the brother in question made a drastic move just to "fit in" with those that attend/ lead his church building.

It's not a matter of God over fraternity if that was indeed the situation. It amounts to peer pressure pure and simple.

Of course, I may be off track here and there may be other circumstances.

Yup!

I feel for the Brother that was put in a situation his church put him in and admit, it was a tough situation. I think he did give into peer pressure from his clergy and their opinions. I wonder if it is the teachings of his church or the beliefs of the members of that particular church(building).

me too...