Hiram Abiff

[PatrickWilliams]

All very good points, Coach, but I will not be moved: his decision was Hiramic and Masonic (in their own way, of course). We will just agree to disagree, yes?

 

[CoachN]

Yep. Peer pressure. But if he had abandoned his church to stay a Mason, that ALSO could be described as folding under peer pressure. Just depends on who you look at as your peers and which peers mean most to you.

If his decision was peer based, he did what he believed was best to support his "ultimate" concern. I do not see that this is Faith based though.

...his religion, therefore his association with G-d, insisted that there was a conflict, and enough of a conflict that he had to choose one or the other.

Once again, it was not his Faith but is choice of association -- his Church -- insisting on this.

Freemasonry is an option, not a requirement.

Yep. So is the choice of church one attends.

If it causes conflict in your life, then (ultimately) our Fraternity is disposable.

I was told that nothing in my obligation would conflict with other activities. Therefore, if this was indeed true, then what you state is impossible.

My Brother unfortunately got caught in a situation where the Lodge conflicted with his faith. What obligation was he supposed to uphold?

Lodge did not conflict with his Faith. It conflicted with his Church. He wanted you to believe that it conflicted with his Faith also and it seems that you do.

Brother Patrick, this person did not want to admit the truth behind his choice. If the life of JC has taught me anything it is that one must be willing to accept the truth of one's life and be willing to accept accountability for one's choices. I believe he failed both lessons.

It could have been possible, indeed. But his minister instructed him: us or them. Believe me, Gary, I had looooonnnnggg discussions with this Brother. In the end, his faith could not be moved and it was his faith.

I'm not accepting that this was a Faith issue my Brother. Perhaps I have a blind spot, but I'm not seeing it.

I can only imagine how difficult it was for you to deal with the convolutions of this Brother's thoughts in your efforts to counsel him. I'd venture to say that there are far more issues involved for this Brother than this thread could adequately outline or address.

 

[CoachN]

All very good points, Coach, but I will not be moved: his decision was Hiramic and Masonic (in their own way, of course). We will just agree to disagree, yes?

Of Course my Brother.

The point is to share our view, our observations and our thoughts.

Not to convince others. Merely to make sure that we have considered other possibilities in good earnest.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I'd venture to say that there are far more issues involved for this Brother than this thread could adequately outline or address.

Oh, mama, you're not just whistling Dixie.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Of Course my Brother.

The point is to share our view, our observations and our thoughts.

Not to convince others. Merely to make sure that we have considered other possibilities in good earnest.

Good. Then I won't have to kill you.

 

[CoachN]

Good. Then I won't have to kill you.

STOP! Ya had me at "good."

 

[Bob Franks]

For the sake of discussion, you said that the brother in question chose his faith over the fraternity. (snip)
Of course, I may be off track here and there may be other circumstances.

I think he was mistaking church for faith.
If my church tells me I have to leave my Masonry to remain in the church, it will not affect my faith, but it will affect which church I am a member of!

S&F

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I think he was mistaking church for faith.

Nope. This Brother's church had him convinced that his mortal soul was in danger of oblivion by remaining a Mason. It's really hard to relate this in typed words, so you'll have to trust me on this one: it became a matter of faith for this particular Brother.

If my church tells me I have to leave my Masonry to remain in the church, it will not affect my faith, but it will affect which church I am a member of!

S&F

Yeah, me, too!

 

[removed12612]

Brother Patrick...is his "church" known to be an anti-mason church??? OR is it just the particular congregation he attends services with the ones who told him his soul was in danger?

 

[Gary]

Nope. This Brother's church had him convinced that his mortal soul was in danger of oblivion by remaining a Mason. It's really hard to relate this in typed words, so you'll have to trust me on this one: it became a matter of faith for this particular Brother.

"church" meaning congregation. Poor guy. So sayeth the shepard so sayeth the flock!

 

[CoachN]

Nope. This Brother's church had him convinced that his mortal soul was in danger of oblivion by remaining a Mason. It's really hard to relate this in typed words, so you'll have to trust me on this one: it became a matter of faith for this particular Brother.

Yes. That is the point I was focusing upon. It's unfortunate that his Church dictated his Faith rather than his Faith dictating his selection of Church.

Proper Masonic Training would have shown this Brother the errors of their ways.

IMO

 

[Winter]

I have to agree with you Coach. Any Mason who truly delves into the Mysteries of our Order could never find a conflict with a religion.

As well, a properly initiated man would be able to see the falicy of any religion that purports to have a conflict with Masonry.

 

[Gary]

I think he was mistaking church for faith.
If my church tells me I have to leave my Masonry to remain in the church, it will not affect my faith, but it will affect which church I am a member of!

S&F

That was exactly my point Brother.

I do however hope that all is well with the person who left Freemasonry behind. Not every man is cut out to be a Mason. As long as he is happy, and spiritually at peace, that's all that matters.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Brothers: you all have good points, but I still will not be moved. You were not there to experience the torment that this erstwhile Brother underwent in making his decision. You did not share his tears or experience his regret. In the end, he chose family & religion over our Order and I will maintain for all time that the way he made his decision and the decision he finally made was truly Masonic. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

To me, Brothers, and JUST to me, Freemasonry is much too large a concept to be held by one understanding. I am a mystic by faith and an esotericist by avocation, but I do not believe that our Fraternity is, or should, belong only to the mystics and esotericists. Those who come to Freemasonry for social reasons have as valid a reason to be there as I do, as you do, as anyone does. There are way too many valid reasons that a man may become a Brother.

My understanding of the Craft is mine and I cannot find it within myself to say that your reasons are less Masonic, or non-Masonic, if you would not make the same choices I do. Again, your understanding of our Craft may vary, along with your mileage .

There are so many reasons that a man comes to our sacred halls; how can any of us judge the right?

 

[Gary]

Brothers: you all have good points, but I still will not be moved. You were not there to experience the torment that this erstwhile Brother underwent in making his decision. You did not share his tears or experience his regret. In the end, he chose family & religion over our Order and I will maintain for all time that the way he made his decision and the decision he finally made was truly Masonic. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

To me, Brothers, and JUST to me, Freemasonry is much too large a concept to be held by one understanding. I am a mystic by faith and an esotericist by avocation, but I do not believe that our Fraternity is, or should, belong only to the mystics and esotericists. Those who come to Freemasonry for social reasons have as valid a reason to be there as I do, as you do, as anyone does. There are way too many valid reasons that a man may become a Brother.

My understanding of the Craft is mine and I cannot find it within myself to say that your reasons are less Masonic, or non-Masonic, if you would not make the same choices I do. Again, your understanding of our Craft may vary, along with your mileage .

There are so many reasons that a man comes to our sacred halls; how can any of us judge the right?

I for one am not trying to sway your opinion. I do however disagree with your opinion that entrance into Freemasonry should be allowable based solely on a man's desire to belong for social reasons. If you want that join the Elks, Moose, or any of the other "social" organizations.

Not to say that we as Freemason's don't socialize, but there is an understanding from the get go that there is work to do. It is not the sole reason for our existence.

I also am not judging the man for his decision. I just happen to not agree with the choice he made. Regardless of the fact that it was Masonic or not, he made the right choice for him. I certainly can't argue that.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

I for one am not trying to sway your opinion. I do however disagree with your opinion that entrance into Freemasonry should be allowable based solely on a man's desire to belong for social reasons. If you want that join the Elks, Moose, or any of the other "social" organizations.

Then you would exclude the vast majority of those who come to us. I have seen Brothers who come "just to go to the playground" (the Shrine) or, well, there are SO many reasons. You would exclude them? Tell me how we know what is really in a man's heart.

Not to say that we as Freemason's don't socialize, but there is an understanding from the get go that there is work to do. It is not the sole reason for our existence.

No, it is not. But it is AMONG the reasons for our existence. All of the reasons are valid, for a given definition of valid. In every jurisdiction I have belonged to, the 'qualifications' for becoming a Mason are that a person be of the proper age and not have a felony record (and sometimes I have even seen a felony record overlooked). So ... whether right, wrong, or indifferent, any other qualification a man brings to the Lodge is his own. Not for me to judge.

I also am not judging the man for his decision. I just happen to not agree with the choice he made. Regardless of the fact that it was Masonic or not, he made the right choice for him. I certainly can't argue that.

[Yoda mode]Ah, Padawan, for you the light begins to dawn. Mmmm. [/Yoda mode] Maybe I won't have to kill you after all.

 

[Winter]

Then you would exclude the vast majority of those who come to us.

Yup.

I'd like to find the first person who ever attached the words "Social Club" to our Order and inter them next to William Morgan.

 

[Gary]

Yup.

I'd like to find the first person who ever attached the words "Social Club" to our Order and inter them next to William Morgan.

Ditto. It ain't about quantity. How do we know what's in a man's heart? we don't. But we can certainly ask what he hopes to get out of Freemasonry, and why he want's to be a Mason in the first place.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Yup.

I'd like to find the first person who ever attached the words "Social Club" to our Order and inter them next to William Morgan.

Well, from the written descriptions alone, you'll have to go back to at least the original Grand Lodge and probably beyond to find that Brother. And I'm not sure that William Morgan would welcome the company.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Ditto. It ain't about quantity. How do we know what's in a man's heart? we don't. But we can certainly ask what he hopes to get out of Freemasonry, and why he want's to be a Mason in the first place.

No, it's not about quantity at all. It's about quality. But that doesn't mean that a prospective member has to be an esotericist to become a Mason. Quality men come in all stripes, and I maintain that our fraternity has the room for them all.