Can a person be Homosexual and be a Mason or Eastern star?

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
I have to respectfully disagree with the putting ones values on the back burner for the sake of the fraternity... when you start to compromise on your values, then they no longer have any merit....none of us should ever compromise their INTERGRIY...when you loose that you have lost everything. Stand up for what you believe to be right and just.... if you feel that being a homosexual is ok...that is fine and if you do not...that is fine as well....you and only you will be the one that has to answer to God. I am sure the reason we vote the way we do is because of issues like this....

It would be interesting to know how many other GL have made a stand on this issue....I know mine doesnt have a written ruling either pro or con.

Fireman, for me at least, there is a great difference in compromising one's integrity and just being silent. But that's a difference between us and I say "Vive l'difference!" I don't see how remaining true to one's beliefs, but being silent about them compromises anyone's integrity. But that's me.
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
The first two paragraphs were to prove a point that to call a person a bigot based on their religious stance on homosexuality is a bigot themselves and nothing to do with their speaking of religion within the lodge . Sorry I was not clear in my posting ,I broke an internet Masonic Landmark . Not all who oppose homosexuality spew obscenities at them , but it is simply their religious views and we in turn can not judge them .

He is to remember that it is not his place to judge any man, more especially a brother Mason. God alone will judge. Who can say how God will judge the gay brother? Who can say how God will judge you, or me? If any Mason finds that he cannot take another brother by the hand, in friendship, for any reason, then he must decide for himself whether or not he can truly continue to be a member of our fraternity.

I agree with you on this also . Just bringing in a different side of the arguement I have heard since all this went down in my jurisdiction and should have stated that . Again , sorry that I was not more clear , not enough coffee . I guess I am off to edit to state this .
Ash, I, for one, never doubted you and thought your post was just illustrative of the point you were making. Have some more coffee!
 
I dont believe I nor anyone should stand up and express their religous beliefs...if I have nothing of value to add I remain silent....and let my heart and conscious guid my vote.... as to this topic, I have not been in the situation so I can not say yea or nay at this time... I would seek wise council from a trusted Brother before I made my decision....but ultimately, I will stand by what I believe is right....
 
Morality is such a touchy topic and has caused great disharmony within many a lodge.... whose standards do we use when judging what is morally right and wrong.... what might be just fine in one lodge may be total chaos in another...

Can I extend my hand to a gay man as a friend...yes... BUT I also can to a man that is a convicted felon...if I feel the circumstances of his crime were justified....
 

Azpir8king

Member
This is a slippery slope. If you are voting for the fraternity and based on its requirements, then the person sexual orientation, religion or color of their hair should not play AT ALL (except, apparently, in MS). A single Puritanical Brother could decimate new candidates by imposing his personal belief system (or that of their Church) on the process and elminating any that may imbibe alcohol, or curse occasionally or that do not attend church on a regular basis. Your personal relationship and religious beliefs SHOULD be put on hold as you evaluate candidates based on the GL's DEFINED method for review and acceptance.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
Substitute the word 'pork' for 'homosexuality'. By the same flawed logic, Jews cannot in good conscience accept as a Mason a Christian who eats pork.

And accepting a homosexual does not interfere with any Mason's relationship with God, any more than having a brother who eats pork or works on the Sabbath does. You eat shellfish? Not in my lodge. It's a sin, says so right in Leviticus.

The whole point of Masonry is to boil life down to what we can all agree on: the Fatherhood of God. After that, the details, trappings, and beliefs of each religion is between a man and his God.

And I realize you're just using the argument used by others to defend the stance, I'm just helping to overcome said objection. :D
No , not all of my statements were made to defend others stance on keep ing gay men out of lodge , I made my statements before someone starts claiming everyone who does not except homosexuality are bigots . If a Jew thinks I am a sinner because I eat pork , then that is his religious belief , he has a right to that belief , I do not consider him a bigot and it is not my place to change his mind .
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
Morality is such a touchy topic and has caused great disharmony within many a lodge.... whose standards do we use when judging what is morally right and wrong.... what might be just fine in one lodge may be total chaos in another...

Can I extend my hand to a gay man as a friend...yes... BUT I also can to a man that is a convicted felon...if I feel the circumstances of his crime were justified....
As so you should. Yet we are called upon as Freemasons to also protect the peace & harmony within the Lodge. Always express what you believe to be the truth, but do it in such a way that you and your Lodge remain peaceful and harmonious. Luckily for my Lodge, this also has never been an issue (to my knowledge, at any rate). Dodged the bullet so far, eh? ;)
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
This was and remains my worry concerning this . When and if the time comes to ballot upon a gay man , what does one do , stand up for what one thinks is right at the sake of the peace and harmony of the lodge to prove you are above all this and throw the lodge into turmoil ? Because we all know that not all Masons can leave their religious beliefs outside the lodge room door .

Note* I keep saying "religious beliefs" because I am not going to drag out those who oppose this because they are intolerant of others different than themselves . They are out there too .
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
Well, I think we've pretty much beaten this dead horse to pieces. Here's another:

Here's the situation: In an unnamed Lodge in an unnamed Jurisdiction, a long-term and well-known Brother announces to the Lodge that he is going to have an operation. This medical procedure will transform him from having the the physical appearance of being male to having the physical appearance of being female. In fact, this Brother, (this is a real situation) resigns from the Fraternity because he does not want the Brotherhood to have to make any painful choices regarding this situation.

Here's the topic for discussion: can a Mason who has gender reassignment surgery remain in the fraternity?

Our rules say no woman can be made a Mason. The individual mentioned was undoubtedly male when made a Mason (married, had kids, the whole bit), it's just that NOW this individual is having surgery to change his appearance into that of a female, and indeed, intends to live as a female after the surgery. So ... no woman was MADE a Mason, in fact, it's just that a Mason was made a woman. What is his/her status as far as the fraternity is concerned?
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
This was and remains my worry concerning this . When and if the time comes to ballot upon a gay man , what does one do , stand up for what one thinks is right at the sake of the peace and harmony of the lodge to prove you are above all this and throw the lodge into turmoil ? Because we all know that not all Masons can leave their religious beliefs outside the lodge room door .

Note* I keep saying "religious beliefs" because I am not going to drag out those who oppose this because they are intolerant of others different than themselves . They are out there too .
Well, inasmuch as the ballot is secret ... one votes one's conscience. I've seen candidates voted down; it's never the most comfortable situation, but it doesn't really compromise the peace and harmony of the Lodge.
 

Brother Liberty

Service Officer
This is not a slippery slope, nor is it a religious issue. It is a civil rights issue. Plain and simple. Freemasonry is meant to accept all religions, races, creeds, political beliefs etc. You cannot decline membership simply because you believe, or taught to believe that a certain thing is bad. We judge men based on their character, not who what they choose to worship, what color they are or whom they choose to devote their life to. To do so violates some our most important beliefs. If your religion states that homosexuals are evil, sinful people then don't be gay. What someone who does not believe in what you believe chooses to do is of no consequence to you or your beliefs. Thats the beauty of this country and its constitution.

Someone mentioned that one should vote against a homosexual person if they are known to engage in wanton immoral behavior. Really? This statement just feeds into the stereotype that homosexuals just engage in random sexual acts, and that is somehow immoral. Would you vote against a single straight man who spends is weekends picking up women? No you would not. Its no different. Again, how much sex someone is having, or who they are having it with has no consequence on your or your beliefs or morals. I would never ask a straight applicant how much action they usually get, nor would I ask a homosexual candidate the same question.

There is also another issue here. Freemasonry is attempting to stem dramatic drop offs in membership. I read somewhere that a few years ago only to states in the country reported positive membership growth. MA was one, and I forget where the other is. The average age of most lodges in in the high sixties, and many lodges lose more members to death or indifference than they can raise in a year. We must be seen for what we are; a fraternity of men from different backgrounds, putting aside those differences to reason together. For a grand lodge to make a sweeping rule like banning homosexuals only adds another nail to the coffin. Think back in history for a moment. Can you name a time where one group attempted to keep certain rights or privileges from another, smaller group and was not proven to be wrong in hindsight? Slavery, women's right to vote, civil rights, the americans with disabilities act. Now, its gay marriage and gay rights. Is it really going to help masonry reach young men to be on the wrong side of that argument.

If the MA grand lodge were to make a rule like that I would demit right away.
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
Well, inasmuch as the ballot is secret ... one votes one's conscience. I've seen candidates voted down; it's never the most comfortable situation, but it doesn't really compromise the peace and harmony of the Lodge.
Very true , This is why this does not need this to be in writing in our constitution banning homosexuals outright . Right or wrong , for or against , everything can be taken care of at the ballot box .

Though I once again left out part of my thought (still working on that coffee) process , but it doesn't matter the stick is broken because this horse has been throughly beaten .
 
4

486

Guest
^^^
Bravo to that.

Edit: I posted after Ashlar not Bro. Liberty. Well said.
 

PatrickWilliams

I could tell you ...
Someone mentioned that one should vote against a homosexual person if they are known to engage in wanton immoral behavior. Really? This statement just feeds into the stereotype that homosexuals just engage in random sexual acts, and that is somehow immoral. Would you vote against a single straight man who spends is weekends picking up women?
I would not vote against a gay man, unless (amongst other reasons) that man was known to behave in a recklessly promiscuous manner. I would not vote against a straight man, (amongst other reasons) unless he was known to behave in recklessly promiscuous manner. I would vote against any candidate who I knew to be engaging in behavior that might defame the fraternity.
 
I believe if the Brother does not want his sexual interests to become an issue, they should remain private... the problem begins when one is flaunting their sexuality openly...do not bring it into the Lodge...gay or straight.... just like ones religion and politics...it will ( notice I didn t say might) cause disharmony in the Lodge.....
 

Ashlar2006

Masonic Mafia
It's an interesting one, no? Remember that this was a real situation: the Brother/Sister involved resigned rather than have the fraternity puzzle over it. But what if he/she hadn't resigned?
Yes it is an interesting topic and deserving of it's own thread . I will back off and think about it before I post my thoughts on it .
 
Patrick.... if you lived in a very conservative area and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that a gay man would cause disharmony in your lodge, how would you vote?
 
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