Can a person be Homosexual and be a Mason or Eastern star?

[Brother Liberty]

I believe if the Brother does not want his sexual interests to become an issue, they should remain private... the problem begins when one is flaunting their sexuality openly...do not bring it into the Lodge...gay or straight.... just like ones religion and politics...it will ( notice I didn t say might) cause disharmony in the Lodge.....

But what about things that lodges do that are open to significant others and families of brothers like a holiday party or a fish fry or an installation of officers? Is a gay brother not allowed to have his significant other participate in such things?

 

[removed12612]

If it will cause disharmony.... then dont do it...plain and simple.... regardless of what it is...if you are in a traditional marriage and she likes to dress provocatively that will cause disharmony dont bring her....if you are gay and dont really talk about it...well if your partner comes have him act accordingly...dont flaunt it...

 

[Winter]

Had I been asked the question about homosexuality in the Lodge 20 years ago I would have probably jumped up and down and said, "Never!"

Thankfully, I have travelled in the world for a while now, mostly with my eyes open. And as I mentioned before, one of my Lodge Brothers and close personal friends is gay and I am proud to call him my Brother. Whether my religion calls it wrong or not, or his does, the fact that he is gay is between him and G-d, nobody else in my view.

I am proud to extend my hand in Brotherly love to him. The way I look at it, I'd rather have a man in my Lodge that is homosexual and a Mason to the core of his being, than a man who claims to be a devout (insert religion here) and yet causes nothing but disharmony in the Lodge or who is in repeated trouble with authorities.

Ashlar is right as well, as usual! If a Brother, or Lodge, or jurisdiction looks into themselves and comes to the conclusion that they cannot in all conscience accept homosexuality in their jurisdiction then that is their right. And if we bash them for this stance, all it means is that we are doing the same thing.

(And before anyone makes any connection between this issue and the PHA one, being black is not a moral issue!)

In the end, this is the reason the investigation process is supposed to be rather lengthy. So we can get a feel for the candidate and as many Brothers as possible have an opportunity to get to know him.

And just a side-note, the pork argument doesn't fly. I'm Jewish, in case I hadn't mentioned! The kashrut dietary laws are just the people of Israel, Jews. Gentiles are not required, according to our religion, to keep any of the laws outside of the Noachide, the 7 laws of Noah. So, eat all the porl you want, it won't offend me!

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Patrick.... if you lived in a very conservative area and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that a gay man would cause disharmony in your lodge, how would you vote?

I could not, in good conscience, vote against an otherwise qualified candidate merely on the basis of their sexual orientation. In the situation you propose, I'm sure others would vote against him.

 

[PatrickWilliams]

So, eat all the pork you want, it won't offend me!

Mmmm. Bacon!!!

 

[Brother Liberty]

(And before anyone makes any connection between this issue and the PHA one, being black is not a moral issue!)

There is a clear connection. You are making your statement in 2010. I would be willing to be that the color of a mans skin was a serious issue in some lodges 60 or 70 years ago.

Just as you said that being black is not a moral issue, neither is being gay.

 

[removed12612]

Does morality need to be removed from the fraternity....since no one can decide as to what standards we judge the person on?

 

[486]

(And before anyone makes any connection between this issue and the PHA one, being black is not a moral issue!)

And just a side-note, the pork argument doesn't fly. I'm Jewish, in case I hadn't mentioned! The kashrut dietary laws are just the people of Israel, Jews. Gentiles are not required, according to our religion, to keep any of the laws outside of the Noachide, the 7 laws of Noah. So, eat all the porl you want, it won't offend me!

RE: Pork. Meh, substitute shellfish then. Or substitute Jew for Muslim. Point taken, and maybe my example was a little loose, but it's still the trappings of religion.

RE: the bolded part above. Does this mean that homosexuals choose their "lifestyle"? That a black person can't help being black, and therefore should not be judged, but that homosexuals choose to be gay, and should accept the consequences of their actions? I'm not challenging you, I'm trying to understand your position.

 

[Azpir8king]

The standards are there...the question is can a Brother INLFICT his personal moral code/agenda or doctrine of his church on the decision to allow a Brother into OUR fraternity? The answer is "yes, he CAN."
Now, the follow up question is "should he?". I say NO, not if he paid attention to any of the degree work he did on the way up OR if he sumply applied the standard given by the GL. By applying his personal code BEYOND the scope of what the GL and YOUR lodge considers the qualifiers for a good Candidate, the Brother opens the door to exclude anyone that does not rise to his personal moral and socio-economic acceptability "bar".
"I hate tattoos..must be a criminal, that guy is outta here"
"I saw his car at an LDS church...that guy is outta here"
"That guys wife posed in a magazine..that guy is outta here (wait, how did you know that?)"
"That guy was listening to AC/DC in the parking lot...must be a devil worshipper, that guy is outta here"
"Thats guys is a republican...he is outta here"
"thats guy is a democrat...he is outta here"

Its is a step backward to even consider excluding someone based on your own personal moral compass.A huge one.

 

[Winter]

Let me clarify, regardless of whether you believe that homosexuality is something you are born with a predisposition to or that it is a choice, the major opposition to it by many conservative branches of different religions is that it is an immoral practice. So morals, and how people choose to interpret them, are at the heart of this issue.

 

[486]

Let me clarify, regardless of whether you believe that homosexuality is something you are born with a predisposition to or that it is a choice, the major opposition to it by many conservative branches of different religions is that it is an immoral practice. So morals, and how people choose to interpret them, are at the heart of this issue.

My opinion here is based on many conversations with many gay neighbors and friends, but I think the church's major opposition is, in fact, based on immorality. However, what makes it immoral in their eyes is that it's a choice.

The Bible and other books mention homosexuality as an abominable sin in the same breath as eating shellfish and animals with cloven hooves that don't chew their cud. These books also state that all sin is an abomination, equally repellent (killing your neighbor is the same as working on the sabbath).

They also state somewhere that slavery is a good thing. It's my opinion that it's the church's interpretation that makes this a moral issue. If they're born with it, it's not a choice and not a 'moral' issue. But if we, as a church, can create doubt that people are born with it, and that they actually choose to live a pretty difficult life as an outsider with no legal rights and where their life partners are not legally recognized, then we can show their moral corruption.

It's this distinction, I believe, that makes this a religious issue.

 

[Ashlar2006]

This horse has been beaten to death . But even after my own post , I want to congratulate everyone for being gentlemen concerning this topic . There were some passionate views on the subject but everyone stayed within due bounds .

That is unless I missed a post .

 

[Winter]

I think horsebeating should be an olympic sport! lol

And it truely says something about Masonry that individuals from so many different backgrounds can come together and discuss a topic like this without rancor and namecalling.

We may not be able to solve all of the world's woes as Masons, but by being a positive example, like we did here with this issue, we might just make a difference.

 

[removed12612]

Agreeing to disagree is a fine art.....

BEATING A DEAD HORSE....it is something done very well by Masons....the profane just might think we are taking over the Olympic if it became a sport...LOL....I am just kiding

I do appreciate differing opinions....it is a basis for potential learning opportunities

 

[companion3X3]

Though it should not be an issue, I think we are not being realistic in thing that it will not come up when the Craft is still dealing with race issues in the deep south regarding Freemasonry.

 

[Gary]

Companion, It is NOT just a southern issue at ALL.

 

[Chandler#58]

Let the Lodge you petition answer that question at the ballott, but I see no reason you should not be elected to receive the degrees of ancient craft masonry...

 

[removed12612]

When a gay man takes his MM oath, does it lack a certain something???? wife,mother,daughter comes to mind.... why isnt the male gender included if being gay is not a problem in masonry??

Disclaimer: I am only asking questions to help build a solid understanding.... remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question....

 

[Duncan1574]

IMHO, the lack of the male perspective is a definition of the times in which the rituals were written, much as the Bible, Torah, and Koran all have a distinct maleness to them as a reflection of the times in which they were written.

 

[Windrider]

When a gay man takes his MM oath, does it lack a certain something???? wife,mother,daughter comes to mind.... why isnt the male gender included if being gay is not a problem in masonry??

Disclaimer: I am only asking questions to help build a solid understanding.... remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question....

Since we are encouraged to swear upon the Book we choose in our personal faith, is there room for a married, gay man to substitute "spouse" or "husband" for "wife" in his oath? I'm not sure that's something I would have the courage to bring to GL.