MM Topic FM & Religion

[Gary]

THANK YOU...... it took you long enough to say it........

as for the individual.... never debated that issue with you..... my whole point has been with masonry in general... not the individual experience....

What then did you just do for the last 18 pages of dialogue? LOL

 

[removed12612]

What then did you just do for the last 18 pages of dialogue? LOL

I never debated that it would not make a difference to you.....
not sure who said it but someone said the removal of the religious items would not be a game changer for masonry...... and now You and I have said it would in deed be a game changer...for masonry as a whole.....

BTW... several pages diverted to defining what is spirituality....

 

[removed12612]

If we go back and review.... you have changed your thoughts on my general point ( pg.8 #72 starting with "IMHO")......

 

[Gary]

I never debated that it would not make a difference to you.....
not sure who said it but someone said the removal of the religious items would not be a game changer for masonry...... and now You and I have said it would in deed be a game changer...for masonry as a whole.....

BTW... several pages diverted to defining what is spirituality....

I think the better question would have been to ask; if it were established that if FM began without religious items, would it have changed the way it works today by comparison?

Your OP led many of us to initially believe that if you removed the items now, would it affect us...

The answer for me is no.

 

[removed12612]

That is why I said "masonry" and not your "individual experience" in my OP..... we must read the words as written and not guess

BTW... my personal experience since being raised would be no as well.....

 

[removed12612]

I think the better question would have been to ask; if it were established that if FM began without religious items, would it have changed the way it works today by comparison?

Your OP led many of us to initially believe that if you removed the items now, would it affect us...

The answer for me is no.

I doubt we would have gone 18 pages if this was my question...... we probably would be on the same page...

 

[Gary]

That is why I said "masonry" and not your "individual experience" in my OP..... we must read the words as written and not guess

BTW... my personal experience since being raised would be no as well.....

You underestimate my intelligence. Masonry to me, is not a building or a within fraternity. My Masonry has to do with personal building.

Your question would have made more sense if you explained Freemasonry as a governing body.

 

[removed12612]

You underestimate my intelligence. Masonry to me, is not a building or a within fraternity. My Masonry has to do with personal building.

Your question would have made more sense if you explained Freemasonry as a governing body.

To quote a wise man: "For you my Brother. Not for me." (pg.7 # 67)

 

[removed12612]

You underestimate my intelligence. Masonry to me, is not a building or a within fraternity. My Masonry has to do with personal building.

Your question would have made more sense if you explained Freemasonry as a governing body.

Nay..my Good Brother....IMPRESSED would be the accurate statement regarding your intellect...

 

[Ashlar2006]

If anything Fireman , you are tenacious ! I have really enjoyed this entire thread .

 

[Gary]

Yeah, he's tenacious... I enjoyed the thread too. I don't like playing devil's advocate, but it helped make for some serious discussion.

 

[removed12612]

If anything Fireman , you are tenacious ! I have really enjoyed this entire thread .

You arent trying to use big words to say something mean are ya (contrary to what Gary will tell ya, not all Truckies are knuckle draggers)...I do have a dictionary....LOL....Thanks Bro.... now how interesting and at time educational and funny would this have been if I just decided to not stick to my guns....

I do believe that we as Brothers should indeed have passionate and respectful conversations...... contrary to what some may believe, we as FM are not required to all think alike..... we are permitted and dare I say encouraged to think and use our minds.....

I do strongly encourage ALL to participate.... we dont bite... and ya never know, someone else just may have a valuable bit of info to throw into the mix......

 

[removed12612]

Yeah, he's tenacious... I enjoyed the thread too. I don't like playing devil's advocate, but it helped make for some serious discussion.

I too like to throw a different POV into the mix.... even if it is not my personal one.... it makes for good conversation..... keeps the brain cells active!!!

 

[Ashlar2006]

You arent trying to use big words to say something mean are ya (contrary to what Gary will tell ya, not all Truckies are knuckle draggers)

I should have seen this one coming , LOL .

Keep it up with these types of threads !

Now , back on topic........

 

[removed12612]

Just to give those reading this a little background info:

Brother Gary and I are both Firefighters by trade.... and as such, we are morally bound by firefighter code of honor to debate any and every topic we can think of..........lol....

 

[CoachN]

I...To answer the question simply...YES it would leave you empty.....but unfortunately the ritual used in the US ... is "based" on lessons from a Holy book used by those in the Christian faith.......is it right...nope.... but it is what it is.....

BUT for the sake of the discussion.... lets not focus on a particular religion... but just religious in general terms....
But you can not deny that the ritual that is most widely used is based on teaching/lessons from a book used by those in the Christian faith....

This is your experience of it. I encourage you to read the ancient Greek classics. I venture to say that for every passage you point to that you claim is related to Christianity, you will find a cleverly masked allusion to a Greek philosophy. IMO

Don't you see a problem? Why is it that we ask candidates if they have a belief in G-d, but don't ask them more about their beliefs?

Because, what is to be Built requires an understanding of Deity, otherwise it's pointless.

Wouldn't having religious symbolism & ritual based on predominantly Christian theology be important for them to know?

Yep. Those that are to pay the Builders need to be honored in their beliefs. When in Rome...

That is why I have argued for so long with you that allegory is more important than a prop. What you see as a necessary item in the Lodge may very well be a source of allegory for another brother.

Yep!

I am not debating that..... ALL I am saying is the removal of religious items from FM would be a game changer....

Just as when adding all the religious items changed it? There is an assumption here that Freemasonry was always entangled with the Christian religion. You might want to reassess that assumption.

I should have seen this one coming , LOL .
...

Yep. It was inevitable!

 

[removed12612]

Bro Coach... you may be right about the Greeks.... but the Holy Bible was referenced and verses used from it in our ritual not the Greek philosophy.

On the contrary my wise Brother.... I do not make any assumptions ( we all know what happens when this is done) that masonry has always been entangled with any with any religion..... I just know that the ritual that has been used (generally speaking here) in the US which is Preston-Webb or a similar version of it, is based off of references from the book the Christian religion uses as its holy book....

 

[Gary]

Maybe I'll pull an Albert Pike and re-write the rituals they way I want them. In 200 years everyone will think that my version is the way it's always been.

I'll be sure to remove all references to religion except for the need for a belief in Deity, and watch the mayhem ensue when the ruffians can't understand what the ritual is actually saying because they can't see beyond the shadow they are standing in.

 

[removed12612]

hmmmm..... that wouldnt be a poke at yours truly would it???

 

[CoachN]

.... but the Holy Bible was referenced and verses used from it in our ritual not the Greek philosophy.

Yes, your Ritual. This is the result on many innovations over many years by many bodies of men in many countries.

You were also told that Freemasonry is "a beautiful/peculiar system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."

What exactly do you think is being veiled?

... I just know that the ritual that has been used (generally speaking here) in the US which is Preston-Webb or a similar version of it, is based off of references from the book the Christian religion uses as its holy book....

Then, please, Brother, tell me... is it the New or the Old Testament that is being used in the symbolic degrees to veil and illustrate?