MM Topic FM & Religion

[Gary]

How can you physically not have the VSL and take your OB? Religion not doctrine is part of the basic fundamentals of masonry..... without religion.... what makes our VSL so special? If it is nothing more than a book....could a person use any book...... VSL by nature are religious works....I am not confused... I do agree we can remove religious ideology and doctrine but still keep religious connotations in masonry....

It's been said before in this conversation. but I'll repeat it. Religion is in a mans heart. The VSL in the Lodge is a mere prop. You are so adamantly defending your position that it would appear that you are missing the big picture.

It's not what you see in Lodge that makes you a Mason, nor is it the practice of our ritual. FM is what you learn from studying the allegory and symbolism and applying those lessons to better yourself. Religion has nothing to do with that.

 

[removed12612]

No OB from an atheist would be considered binding upon him...

S&F

So.... are you saying it is from a pure standpoint of religion/belief in deity that exclusively bars an atheist?

 

[removed12612]

It's been said before in this conversation. but I'll repeat it. Religion is in a mans heart. The VSL in the Lodge is a mere prop. You are so adamantly defending your position that it would appear that you are missing the big picture.

It's not what you see in Lodge that makes you a Mason, nor is it the practice of our ritual. FM is what you learn from studying the allegory and symbolism and applying those lessons to better yourself. Religion has nothing to do with that.

BUT without the "prop" a man will never become a mason and learn the allegory and symbolism...... I am VERY adamant that the physical presence of certain item are needed to accomplish things..... I understand completely what you are saying from the stand point of a MM I agree completely...... BUT not all have completed their work as Coach has prior to being accepted in..... If the VSL is in ones heart....would you allpw a candidate to take his OB on a comic book since the mere physical book is only a prop... the Lodge could call the comic book their "VSL" but tell the candidate that the VSL is in your heart...... how effective would that be? What about when you were first brought to light..... would it have meant anything to you if the SD would have whispered in your ear "just imagine the 3GL" infront of you..... WHY have anything in a lodge??? Can the WM set in the SouthEast middle section..... but be in the west in his heart..... would you walk through certain areas during Lodge??? Why have a physical tyler at the door??? Just have a cut out figure posted on the wall and symbolically have a real Brother there????
Have you considered that while things may have allegorical and symbolic meanings..... they also have actual meaning and vital parts of what is the basic make up of masonry.

 

[Gary]

BUT without the "prop" a man will never become a mason and learn the allegory and symbolism...... I am VERY adamant that the physical presence of certain item are needed to accomplish things..... I understand completely what you are saying from the stand point of a MM I agree completely...... BUT not all have completed their work as Coach has prior to being accepted in..... If the VSL is in ones heart....would you allpw a candidate to take his OB on a comic book since the mere physical book is only a prop... the Lodge could call the comic book their "VSL" but tell the candidate that the VSL is in your heart...... how effective would that be? What about when you were first brought to light..... would it have meant anything to you if the SD would have whispered in your ear "just imagine the 3GL" infront of you..... WHY have anything in a lodge??? Can the WM set in the SouthEast middle section..... but be in the west in his heart..... would you walk through certain areas during Lodge??? Why have a physical tyler at the door??? Just have a cut out figure posted on the wall and symbolically have a real Brother there????
Have you considered that while things may have allegorical and symbolic meanings..... they also have actual meaning and vital parts of what is the basic make up of masonry.

Now you are just being silly. How do you go from a discussion about religion/FM to cut out figures of a Tyler????

I don't disagree that props aid in the lessons being taught.

Yes, I've considered a great many things. Most all have a literal interpretation. If they didn't have value, they likely wouldn't be used in masonry.

 

[removed12612]

Now you are just being silly. How do you go from a discussion about religion/FM to cut out figures of a Tyler????

I don't disagree that props aid in the lessons being taught.

Yes, I've considered a great many things. Most all have a literal interpretation. If they didn't have value, they likely wouldn't be used in masonry.

I was being a bit silly about the tyler but when you start saying masonry is symbolic....where do you draw the line and say yes...these thing do need to be there???.....

The lessons being taught are my entire point..... without the "props" the vast majority ( I include myself in this) would not have taken masonry serious had they not been there...... and the continued presence of the VSL in Lodge is a constant reminder of the lessons and OB we took as Masons.... Individuals by themselves may or may not need the continued physical presence of the VSL because they are not blinded by shadows.... BUT others on their journey may need them.....

lets say a Brother was struggling a bit in life and the one place he found comfort was in Lodge..... and the first time he felt true belonging was the first time he saw the 3GL as a Brother..... now he comes back to Lodge to "get his batteries" recharged and low and behold...the Lodge no longer has the 3GL any more.... all the regular members decided they had the meaning in their heart....what do you think the removal of the VSL would do to that Brother.....????

I know one thing for sure.... if I attended a regular Lodge that didnt have a VSL I wouldnt stay.... and I am not meaning because I would consider them irregular....AND I do have the true meaning in my heart as well as others do...

 

[removed12612]

Consider this my good Brother...... the presence of certain items within the Lodge just might be there to help those who are at differing points in their journey and are attempting to do their work..... the removal would/could change everything for them.... so to me that is another reason not having a physical VSL in lodge would be a game changer.....maybe not for all but it would change it for some....


I do believe you are mistaken in my standing my ground as a religious reason..... it couldnt be further away.....

 

[Gary]

I was being a bit silly about the tyler but when you start saying masonry is symbolic....where do you draw the line and say yes...these thing do need to be there???.....

The lessons being taught are my entire point..... without the "props" the vast majority ( I include myself in this) would not have taken masonry serious had they not been there...... and the continued presence of the VSL in Lodge is a constant reminder of the lessons and OB we took as Masons.... Individuals by themselves may or may not need the continued physical presence of the VSL because they are not blinded by shadows.... BUT others on their journey may need them.....

lets say a Brother was struggling a bit in life and the one place he found comfort was in Lodge..... and the first time he felt true belonging was the first time he saw the 3GL as a Brother..... now he comes back to Lodge to "get his batteries" recharged and low and behold...the Lodge no longer has the 3GL any more.... all the regular members decided they had the meaning in their heart....what do you think the removal of the VSL would do to that Brother.....????

I know one thing for sure.... if I attended a regular Lodge that didnt have a VSL I wouldnt stay.... and I am not meaning because I would consider them irregular....AND I do have the true meaning in my heart as well as others do...

Again, I'm going to be redundant. I said that removing religion would not change FM for me. It would however, affect some brothers. Those that require a prop to act as a reminder for their conscience.

Reference to G-d in the Lodge is not my point of debate. FM being labeled as a Christian fraternity is. It's basically like saying, "yeah... you guys from other religions can join, but you must submit to our Christian ideology. The HB has been written into our ritual, so deal with it! We'll just stick your crappy ol' VSL next to the 'real one' when you take your OB."

I take exception to that way of thinking.

 

[removed12612]

Again, I'm going to be redundant. I said that removing religion would not change FM for me. It would however, affect some brothers. Those that require a prop to act as a reminder for their conscience.

Reference to G-d in the Lodge is not my point of debate. FM being labeled as a Christian fraternity is. It's basically like saying, "yeah... you guys from other religions can join, but you must submit to our Christian ideology. The HB has been written into our ritual, so deal with it! We'll just stick your crappy ol' VSL next to the 'real one' when you take your OB."

I take exception to that way of thinking.

NEVER been said in this discussion.....

ALL that has been said is the removal of religion and all the different connections(ie VSL) would be a game changer...... if it wasnt... our GL would have fraternal relations with the GL that do not have these connections as a requirement.....the masonry we are apart of is considered regular in part because of religious items.... NOT Dogma.....remove the VSL...which ever you choose to use.... and you are not considered regular.... THAT is a game changer...regardless if you have it in your heart or not.....

 

[Gary]

NEVER been said in this discussion.....

ALL that has been said is the removal of religion and all the different connections(ie VSL) would be a game changer...... if it wasnt... our GL would have fraternal relations with the GL that do not have these connections as a requirement.....the masonry we are apart of is considered regular in part because of religious items.... NOT Dogma.....remove the VSL...which ever you choose to use.... and you are not considered regular.... THAT is a game changer...regardless if you have it in your heart or not.....

I refer you to post #33.

 

[removed12612]

Without religion, Freemasonry becomes clandestine like the Grande Oriente de France who permit atheists to walk in the light and call themselves a Brother. Anathema. Abomination. Detested. Reprehensible.

Not going to sugar-coat my thoughts on this one.

Going to bring the words of a non Christian back into play..... just to show my thinking is not based on my religious denomination....

 

[removed12612]

I offer to you that based on the ritual used predominantly in the US of A....FM was a Christian based..... and I say that because if it wasnt based on teaching exclusively from the HB references from the other VSL would have been used as well....the other VSL were known when the Preston-Webb ritual was written.

Now on why to accept others of faith... simple...the evolution from the original interpretation.....yes I said change and masonry in the same conversation

Why accept deist....easy also...they believe in a single god..... there for they meet one of the qualifications

Again...putting words in my mouth.... notice the word "ritual" and "based"... never was it said that "IT IS A CHRISTIAN GROUP"

 

[Gary]

What if we were to rephrase the original question. What if we removed "denominational" references to religion from FM? Would it change anything?

I think we agree that belief in G-d is a solid requirement.

 

[removed12612]

What if we were to rephrase the original question. What if we removed "denominational" references to religion from FM? Would it change anything?

I think we agree that belief in G-d is a solid requirement.

Sure it would..... but I see no denominational references..... I do see references to a particular faith .... Christianity is not a denomination.... Catholic, Baptist, Methodist,Nazarene etc are.....

Yes I agree that a belief in a god is a requirement....and having a VSL regardless of which one it is is a requirement as well...... removal of either is a game changer (a VSL is a religious item) for all who are considered regular..... if it wasnt a game changer we would have recognition of the Grande Oriente de France.....

 

[Gary]

Again...putting words in my mouth.... notice the word "ritual" and "based"... never was it said that "IT IS A CHRISTIAN GROUP"

I'm not putting words in "your" mouth my Brother. But using the word "based", certainly has it's implications, doesn't it?

For the sake of this discussion let's pose a scenario...

Let's say I'm Buddhist. I petition a Lodge, and they ask me if i believe in G-d. Of course, I say yes... I get initiated, only to find out that the ritual and VSL is "based" on a religion that I have no connection with.

Wouldn't that leave me in the same empty position as those Brothers who needed the HSJ/HB, and scriptural references to be part of their experience if it were removed?

 

[removed12612]

I'm not putting words in "your" mouth my Brother. But using the word "based", certainly has it's implications, doesn't it?

For the sake of this discussion let's pose a scenario...

Let's say I'm Buddhist. I petition a Lodge, and they ask me if i believe in G-d. Of course, I say yes... I get initiated, only to find out that the ritual and VSL is "based" on a religion that I have no connection with.

Wouldn't that leave me in the same empty position as those Brothers who needed the HSJ/HB, and scriptural references to be part of their experience if it were removed?

I would say more along the lines of assumption.....

now to your scenario:

To answer the question simply...YES it would leave you empty.....but unfortunately the ritual used in the US (I shouldnt say US....I know the ritual here in IN is based on the Preston-Webb ritual and it is hard to argue that they didnt use Christian references in their ritual) is "based" on lessons from a Holy book used by those in the Christian faith.......is it right...nope.... but it is what it is.....

BUT for the sake of the discussion.... lets not focus on a particular religion... but just religious in general terms....
But you can not deny that the ritual that is most widely used is based on teaching/lessons from a book used by those in the Christian faith....

 

[Gary]

I would say more along the lines of assumption.....

now to your scenario:

To answer the question simply...YES it would leave you empty.....but unfortunately the ritual used in the US (I shouldnt say US....I know the ritual here in IN is based on the Preston-Webb ritual and it is hard to argue that they didnt use Christian references in their ritual) is "based" on lessons from a Holy book used by those in the Christian faith.......is it right...nope.... but it is what it is.....

BUT for the sake of the discussion.... lets not focus on a particular religion... but just religious in general terms....
But you can not deny that the ritual that is most widely used is based on teaching/lessons from a book used by those in the Christian faith....

Don't you see a problem? Why is it that we ask candidates if they have a belief in G-d, but don't ask them more about their beliefs?

Wouldn't having religious symbolism & ritual based on predominantly Christian theology be important for them to know?

That is why I have argued for so long with you that allegory is more important than a prop. What you see as a necessary item in the Lodge may very well be a source of allegory for another brother.

Sure OB's should be taken on their respective VSL, but other than that... It's allegorical references to those who aren't of the Christian persuasion.

 

[removed12612]

Don't you see a problem? Why is it that we ask candidates if they have a belief in G-d, but don't ask them more about their beliefs?

Wouldn't having religious symbolism & ritual based on predominantly Christian theology be important for them to know?

That is why I have argued for so long with you that allegory is more important than a prop.What you see as a necessary item in the Lodge may very well be a source of allegory for another brother.

Sure OB's should be taken on their respective VSL, but other than that... It's allegorical references to those who aren't of the Christian persuasion.

I am not debating that..... ALL I am saying is the removal of religious items from FM would be a game changer....

answer to bold type: Sure it would be good for them to know.... but we dont admit openly that the ritual is based on Christian theology. (BTW..are you admitting it is based on Christian theology???)

back to the general discussion.....

again...lets not mention any faith...just religious items in general....... removal of them from Masonry and we change one of the basic items we consider what makes a Lodge/GL regular or not...... lets talk about masonry as a whole.... not the individual experience...

 

[Gary]

I am not debating that..... ALL I am saying is the removal of religious items from FM would be a game changer....

answer to bold type: Sure it would be good for them to know.... but we dont admit openly that the ritual is based on Christian theology. (BTW..are you admitting it is based on Christian theology???)

back to the general discussion.....

again...lets not mention any faith...just religious items in general....... removal of them from Masonry and we change one of the basic items we consider what makes a Lodge/GL regular or not...... lets talk about masonry as a whole.... not the individual experience...

Should I admit anything? I think it's been well established through the symbolism publicly available to anyone who can read a book or Google the topic.

Back to your ever evolving question...

Masonry as whole has established itself with the use of religious items. Of course removal of said items at this point in the game would change things.

We would have to re write ritual, constitutions, etc... to incorporate such a change.

As for the individual, my argument remains the same.

 

[removed12612]

Should I admit anything? I think it's been well established through the symbolism publicly available to anyone who can read a book or Google the topic.

Back to your ever evolving question...

Masonry as whole has established itself with the use of religious items. Of course removal of said items at this point in the game would change things.

We would have to re write ritual, constitutions, etc... to incorporate such a change.

As for the individual, my argument remains the same.

THANK YOU...... it took you long enough to say it........

as for the individual.... never debated that issue with you..... my whole point has been with masonry in general... not the individual experience....

 

[removed12612]

I had faith in ya Brother that you could admit that masonry in general would be different if religious items were removed....