Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Up! Great movie! SQUIRREL!
FreeMasonry Vs. Princehall Masonry
- Thread starter Derric
- Start date
I drank that stuff like crazy the past two Saturdays. The Scottish Rite wants you there at 6:30am for their Re-unions, which means I need to leave at 5:30am, so I was up at 4-4:30am.
Ashlar2006
Masonic Mafia
LOL , not a problem .
Kevin C Livingston
New Member
Funny thing. My fellow officers (I am senior Steward/Junior Deacon Pro Tem by the way) tell me I need to cut back on the Caffeine because I rattle off ritual too fast. I purposely try to slow my talking down.You're obviously not really a Mason, Kevin. Caffeine is our lifeblood.
Amen to this!
Kentuckyproud
New Member
ok not to start anything but this is how i feel ..in the past we did not recognize ph simply because they just started a lodge without a charter . but it grew into a huge organization .now it just looks to me like our lodge wants the numbers or money which ever way one cares to view that . if anybody just up and starts a lodge does that mean we are going to accept them .?? some lodges except women are we going to start that too ?? please look at history and learn hold to what we believe in or accept anything . i've been in the lodge for over 30 yrs and will not change . like the saying goes stand for something or fall for anything .
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Hey, KY, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. However, I think your opinion needs to be based on fact. Prince Hall did NOT start a Lodge without a charter. They were regularly constituted by the Grand Lodge of England, just like every other regular Lodge on this continent was done at the time. They've even still GOT that charter (which most of our early Lodges do not). Now, it is also true that when their charter was revoked by England, the Grand Lodges on this continent did not pick it up, but it is quite incorrect to say that they were not regular. They were. And are. For whatever set of reasons, you and the GL's of five states (I think it's only 5 now ... I may be wrong) refuse to recognize their regularity. So be it. But those of us who DO recognize them are not about to start recognizing every GL that pops its head up. It's not about money, it's not about power, it's about recognizing regularity, just as we recognize the GL of KY.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Oh, yeah ... and it's not about numbers OR money. They haven't joined us, we haven't joined them. Nobody pays dues or per capita to the other organization. All the recognition means is that we recognize each other as regular. We also have a 'visitation clause' (both in Alaska and Wisconsin). We can visit one another, but we cannot participate. So, I can go (when I get permission) to a Prince Hall meeting and sit on the sidelines, and the same is true for them (they can come visit my Lodge). But NO MONEY CHANGES HANDS and their numbers are their numbers and ours are ours.
Winter
I've been here before
Brother Kentucky, I hope you stay around and join in with the discussion. We may not solve anything, but we might still learn something from each other.
That being said, your statement has several incorrect assumptions in it. First, the Lodge formed by Prince Hall was regularly chartered by England. The discussion as to the status of the charter later on is another topic. Second, mainstream GL's would recieve no income from PHA Lodges, nor would their numbers count towards ours and vice-versa. And lastly, acceptance of a Lodge/Jurisdiction/Grand Lodge is defined by very strict criteria. So no, we will not be accepting just anything that comes down the pike. The UGLE says that PHA Lodges in the US are regular. They are pretty strict in their standards so that is good enough for me.
Please don't take this reply wrong, I am merely trying to assist with some background for the discussion and it is important to note that I am in no way saying that I know what is best for your jurisdiction.
Kentuckyproud
New Member
forgive my errors in history ..but if a lodge has been rules clandestine then i truly believe it should remain that way ..just a personal thought .. and correct me if i am wrong but the charter they got from england was not from our grand lodge remember there is a lodge in england that still excepts ladies . so how does all you brothers feel on that ,should we ?African Lodges were constituted in Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and New York. On June 24, 1791, the African Grand Lodge of North America was organized in Boston with Prince Hall as Grand Master. This was one year before the organization of the United Grand Lodge of Massachusetts (Caucasian). In 1827, 45 years after the (Caucasian) Grand Lodge of Massachusetts had done so, African Lodge of Boston declared itself independent of the Grand Lodge of England.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Okay ... it is true that Prince Hall and his friends were originally raised in a military Lodge under the Grand Lodge of Ireland, not the Grand Lodge of England. AND the GL of Ireland authorized them to meet as a Lodge. But that was not uncommon here at the time. They WERE almost immediately recognized as regular by the Provincial Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, under the Grand Lodge of England. This was in 1776. BUT the GL in England that recognized their legitimacy WAS the same GL that set up the Provincial Lodges from whom all regular GL in this country can trace their charters.
Yes, further historical events led the GL's of the fledgling US to declare them clandestine. But we (from our modern perspective) feel that that decision was in error. The United Grand Lodge of England recognizes PHA as regular. 46 of the 51 GL's in the USA recognize PHA as regular. Their history has no more blemishes than ours do. Because we at one time found them to be clandestine does not mean that they are clandestine for all time. Just as a Brother who has been expelled or suspended can come back into the fold in the fullness of time, PHA is being almost universally accepted by Masons everywhere as a regularly constituted Masonic organization. (Please note that I am not comparing PHA to a Brother who has been suspended or expelled, I'm merely stating that things, even in Masonry, do not stay the same forever.) Why? Because they were (and are) regularly constituted. They are not, and never have been, clandestine (even if we said they were). Any differences we have had with them are long healed.
Should other jurisdictions feel differently, that is their right. But the truth, my Brother, once you get past all the other stuff is this: Prince Hall Grand Lodges are regularly constituted. And always have been. Our mutual recognition policies are just that: mutual recognition. PHA members do not become Mainstream Masons. Mainstream Masons do not become PHA. We visit each other from time to time, we hold table lodges together, in a very few jurisdictions we can even work together. But that's the extent of it.
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Yes. There is. Not just a Lodge, mind you, they have a GL system of their own. There is also a GL system in England of women only. There is a GL system of Co-Masons (men and women together) here in the USA. It's called the American Federation of Human Rights. Why don't we recognize them? Because they cannot trace their charter back to the Grand Lodge of England, and they don't uphold the Ancient Landmarks. That's all that recognition of regularity means. If you can trace your charter back to the Grand Lodge of England (or now to the United Grand Lodge of England) and you uphold the Landmarks then you are a regular Masonic body. If you cannot, then you are NOT regular. Regularity does not necessarily mean that we have to meet together, or work together, or even like each other. It just means that you have a direct connection, through your charter to the GL of England (and uphold the Ancient Landmarks).
Now, about women in specific: one of our Ancient Landmarks is that a woman cannot be made a Mason. Therefore, we will probably always hold that a Lodge, or Grand Lodge, that admits women is clandestine. It's really just that simple.
So, back to PHA: they do not admit women, they have a Charter that can be traced back to the GL of England. As far as we can tell, they uphold the same Landmarks we do. They are indeed regular. Nobody can reasonably say that they aren't. Now, saying that they are regular will never mean that you have to sit down with them. It does not mean that KY or any other state will have to work with them. All it means is that you recognize the truth: they are regularly constituted and uphold the ancient landmarks. Look at Texas, as an example: they recognize PHA's regularity, but do not allow visitation or anything else.
Kevin C Livingston
New Member
So which five states do not recognize Prince Hall Lodges as regular?
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
Finding this info online is difficult! I recently was reading somewhere that the number is now 46 which recognize, but I now cannot confirm that. Anyhow, I KNOW that Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and Florida do not recognize PHA. Kentucky & Tennessee may also still be on the list. As may be Ohio. I will continue to research this and will get back to you once I am satisfied that I have correct information.
removed12612
Guest
Ohio has fraternal rights I do believe with PHA...but only in the state...just like we do in Indiana
Kevin C Livingston
New Member
Thank for that, Brother Williams!
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
[sigh] Well, I cannot confirm my earlier statistic. The most reliable source I can find (Ted Bessell's page) was updated last on 25 Oct 2008. At that time, TEN jurisdictions still did not recognize PHA. Those Jurisdictions are:
LA AL MS GA FL SC AR TN WV KY
So 41 (not 45) of the jurisdictions in the USA recognize PHA, for sure. This makes me sad, I was sure we were doing better than that. [sigh]
PatrickWilliams
I could tell you ...
According to the Freemasonry for Dummies site (freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com, last edited 6/1/2010) we are still at 10 holdouts. Just as they are listed above. However my research does show that in 2002 the MW GL of GA, AF&AM did vote for mutual recognition, but the PHA Grand Lodge never responded.
Thank you my brother. I was just about to post something similar before I read your post!
Kevin C Livingston
New Member
I hope I live to see the day where the differences are dissolved! Hey, I got to see the brekdown of the Berlin Wall, Fall of the Communist Party IN and dissolution OF the U.S.S.R., launch of the first space shuttle, the freedom of Nelson Mandella and countless other wonderful things in my (soon to be) 44 years of life. I have, at least, another 30 years of life so I just might live to see the barriers broken down completely!