FreeMasonry Vs. Princehall Masonry

[Kentuckyproud]

Ok not to beat a dead horse but I would just love for somebody explain how if it was once ruled clandestine that all of a sudden with a magic wand it isn't I just don't understand .forgive me please . When I went into the lodge years ago I signed that I was free white and 21 ...I look around at our schools and lots other things after they have soften the rules and how they have lost control of the kids ..and I just fear that our lodge is going to do the same by losing the rules ..Now I want to be very plane I have nothing against black brothers as long as there is no PHA. affilation .matter a fact have set with a black mason (from England) no problems at all with that for me ...Just watching the rules bent to suit for what ever reason concerns me . I truly believe that if it's forced down alot of the southerm lodges that there will be a split which I surely hope not . and back to the black brother I sit with I ask him how he felt and he believe it or not he agreed with me .. wrong is wrong last year and next year too ..

 

[PatrickWilliams]

Ok not to beat a dead horse but I would just love for somebody explain how if it was once ruled clandestine that all of a sudden with a magic wand it isn't I just don't understand .forgive me please .

Oh, my brother; there was no magic wand, and it's not all of a sudden. This didn't happen overnight and it didn't happen willy-nilly. The mutual recognition of Mainstream and PHA lodges has been happening for a long time now and it has been a rocky and sometimes painful road. But the jurisdictions who have accepted each other have done so because deep, deep down they felt that it was the right thing to do.

When I went into the lodge years ago I signed that I was free white and 21 ...I look around at our schools and lots other things after they have soften the rules and how they have lost control of the kids ..and I just fear that our lodge is going to do the same by losing the rules ..Now I want to be very plane I have nothing against black brothers as long as there is no PHA. affilation .matter a fact have set with a black mason (from England) no problems at all with that for me ...Just watching the rules bent to suit for what ever reason concerns me.

This is not the same thing. It is not watering down anybody's rules, it's merely righting an old, old wrong. It's not even bending the rules: it's deciding that a course of action that was taken a long time ago is not in the best interests of our fraternity.

I truly believe that if it's forced down alot of the southerm lodges that there will be a split which I surely hope not . and back to the black brother I sit with I ask him how he felt and he believe it or not he agreed with me .. wrong is wrong last year and next year too ..

Brother, believe me, nobody's trying to force anybody. The 41 Grand Lodges that have gained mutual recognition have done this because they believe it to be right. Kentucky (in fact, ANY jurisdiction) has to do what it thinks is right for its own jurisdiction. And if a jurisdiction, armed with all the proper information, chooses NOT to unite, then nobody can say them nay. All I can add is, should a jurisdiction refuse to unite, they're really missing something.

The majority of us do not think this is wrong, Brother, we think that it's right and we think it's well past time for these changes to be made, for these ancient wrongs to be healed. But once again ... every jurisdiction is sovereign, do what you think is right and do what you think is in the best interests of the fraternity.

 

[Lieutenant]

Our Brothers

We in Evansville, Indiana recognize the Prince Hall Masonic Lodge. We have often invited our Prince Hall brothers into our lodges. We have enjoyed their presence at our meetings and had them to participate in our rituals. Isn't that what it is all about?

Brotherhood means men being united for a common purpose. The world is made up of men of every color. Is one color more qualified to be called a Mason than another?

 

[Azpir8king]

....... When I went into the lodge years ago I signed that I was free white and 21 .....

Really? White was a requirement? Is it a KY GL Requirement today? I know why the term "freeborn" was left in. It kept runaway/emancipated and freed slaves Out of FM in the middle 1900's, thus keeping the lodge free of a political issue (AKA: civil war). But this late into the 20th and 21st century, "white" as a requirement survived? Based on that (and nothing else) wouldn't you say this could be more about RACE than clandestine?

Also, the "once and forever" argument is not valid. Do you use cipher keys? I am reading the history of FM in WI and the words "never, clandestine and mandatory expulsion" were used up until the 1990's when it came to cipher keys. The old guard was sticking to its guns about the "mouth to ear" method. If they lernt' it that way, everyone should have to. To do it any other way was "clandestine and a violation of the basic tenets of Freemasonry" ( to quote a WGM of the day). BLAH BLAH BLAH. Now, the GL publishes them. Forever is a long damn time, my friend.

 

[Winter]

... When I went into the lodge years ago I signed that I was free white and 21 ...

If this is true, it is shameful. There. I said it.

To stipulate that a petitioner must have a specific skin color to apply? I cannot even wrap my mind around this concept. I am trying very hard here to be respectful as you are my Brother, but it is difficult.

At least it's no that way anymore. This is from the GL KY petition:

"Our Ancient and Honorable Fraternity welcomes to its doors and admits to its privileges worthy men of all faiths, creeds and of every race who believe in a Supreme Being, as stated in our Degrees and lectures, and; Whereas there is no reference to the exclusion of any petitioner with regard to race, creed, and / or faith in any of the accepted Rituals and / or Monitors authorized for use within the constituent lodges chartered by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, F.&A.M."

 

[PatrickWilliams]

We in Evansville, Indiana recognize the Prince Hall Masonic Lodge. We have often invited our Prince Hall brothers into our lodges. We have enjoyed their presence at our meetings and had them to participate in our rituals. Isn't that what it is all about?

Brotherhood means men being united for a common purpose. The world is made up of men of every color. Is one color more qualified to be called a Mason than another?

Brother, I can't wait for full fraternal recognition! Here in Wisconsin, we can only visit; we cannot participate with each other. (sigh)

 

[PatrickWilliams]

If this is true, it is shameful. There. I said it.

To stipulate that a petitioner must have a specific skin color to apply? I cannot even wrap my mind around this concept. I am trying very hard here to be respectful as you are my Brother, but it is difficult.

I wonder what would happen if I petitioned in KY. I'm not white, I'm Jewish.

Cannot change the world, Bro. Winter. Cannot change the world, but you'd be a sucker not to try. I pray that all Brethren will eventually see the light, but I am most definitely right about this: the change IS coming, it's here today. Sooner or later .... sooner or later.

 

[removed12612]

Here in Indiana we can do what the Lt has said BUT if you are PHA in any other state, you cannot visit our Lodges nor can we visit theirs...it is only fraternal relations within the state of Indiana......we had a guy while in the military was raised in a PHA lodge over seas....he came back and had to jump through hoops to be able to travel...he had to join a PHA Lodge then demit to a MS Lodge.....
The non recognition has been a two way street...lets not over look that too

 

[Winter]

You are correct about the two way street, Brother. Many forget that. But inroads have been made on both sides of the isles. Someday, all that will matter is that you are a Mason.

 

[Ashlar2006]

No it is not now 21 and "white" in KY . The requirements as is written in an old GL constitution from 60 years ago that I have , states "Being a Man , Of legal age , Freeborn and under a tongue of good report" !!

4 to 5 years ago the "Freeborn" was removed from it .

 

[Ashlar2006]

I have kept quiet on this but I will now speak up . Many old heads in KY have it in their heads that PHA is Clandestine because this is what they were taught . They are not clandestine .

They are REGULAR but simply UNRECOGNIZED .

 

[Bob Franks]

I cannot answer that question, I have never attended a PHA lodge, and I don't know of any in my local vacinity.

My Brother-
A few minutes research on the WWW finds St. John's Lodge #26, 616 Spruce Street Williamsport PA 17701. Their GL website lists 1st Sunday as their meeting day. E. Raimund Fairfax is listed as their Secretary.
Mapquest says its 22 minutes away from Jersey Shore, PA. Check on their regularity (their are other GLs styling themselves as 'Prince Hall') and GO!

S&F

 

[Blaine B. Gemeny]

I challenge you first to go to the UGLE website and see who is recognized and who is not also who has the only remaining chater/ Warrant in the US, after this call the UGLE and ask who can be seated in an open meeting at the UGLE i think you'll find the truth EXTREMELY alarming ...I know for 100% that most princehall masons can!!!!! are origins are solid ive stood next to the orginal charter at african lodge #459 guarded 24/7 at bank in a sealed vault. i would like to see anyone elses charter.....good luck

Peace Be With You.
It is a factual statement in regards to the UGLE and it's recognition of Prince Hall Masons. After nearly two centuries of controversy since the grand master of the Mother Grand Lodge of England, H. R. H. The Duke of Cumberland, issued a charter for the African Lodge No. 1 later renamed African Lodge no. 459 on September 29, 1784. The Grand Lodge of England was asked to decide the matter of Prince Hall Masonic legitimacy. Carefully studying the records, the Grand Lodge of England concluded that the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Massachusetts was indeed entitled to Masonic recognition and this against the tradition that, per state, only one recognized Masonic body should exist.
The Charter you speak of is a very historically significant document. It is as a Georgia Mason noted, "the original local lodge rules written by Prince Hall and his followers in the late 18th century were the first set of regulations drafted by colored men for self government in the United States and Masonry ever since has striven to teach its members ‘the fundamentals of central government’ which is the basis of American life.”
Prior to the American Revolutionary War, Prince Hall and fourteen other free black men petitioned for the admittance to the white Boston St. John’s Lodge. They were turned away.
"When I have to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave it.” Albert Pike

 

[Blaine B. Gemeny]

Brother Blaine,

PHA can actually trace it's origins to England. Prince Hall and the 14 other African-American Masons applied for and recieved their Warrent from the Grand Lodge of England in 1784 and they formed African Lodge #459 (Later changed to #370).

They were struck from the Roles, like all American Lodges, in 1813 when the Antients and Moderns reconciled and renamed itself African Lodge #1.

Since then, the major issue wasn't the color of their skin but rather the manner in which the PHA Grand Lodge was formed.

Thanks for sharing,
Freemasonry is the oldest Fraternal organization in existence. Written records about the Order date back to 1390, and the traditions of Masonry are even older. The Grand Lodge of Virginia is the oldest independent body in the United States.

 

[Winter]

"When I have to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave it.” Albert Pike

But, as often is the case, one sentence taken out of context can be misleading at best. In fact, that quote - appearing in a book published by the anti-Masonic "Charles T. Powner Co." Delmar D. Darrah, a Past Grand Master of Illinois included it in his work, "The History and Evolution of Freemasonry" published in 1954. Immediately preceding that sentence, however, appears the following:

"The status of Negro Masonry in this country was perhaps never better defined than it was by Albert Pike in 1875, when he said"

"Prince Hall Lodge was as regular a Lodge as any Lodge created by competent authority. It had a perfect right to establish other Lodges and make itself a Mother Lodge."

It is noted that Darrah's quotation of Pike refers to the state of Masonic relations between Prince Hall Masonry and "Mainstream" Masonry over 175 years ago - at the time when social separation of the races was both accepted and expected. Those who cite the Pike quote fail to acknowledge that in the United States even a full century later, there were race riots and discrimination was rampant. Children were being bussed to schools, major cities such as Boston were in open revolt with car bombings of those reserve and guard military forces which were called in to assist in keeping peace, and barely 20 years earlier, the rest rooms in the United States Supreme Court were segregated. Is it any wonder that a gentleman of Pike's time would find it disagreeable and improper to 'mingle' as an equal with "Negroes" who, even to today, are depicted as "mud people".

Suffice it to say, the argument of Pike's racism is but a ruse. The quotation involved Prince Hall Freemasonry. Despite this statement, however, Pike gave a complete copy of the Scottish Rite rituals to Prince Hall leaders in order to assist them in the formation of a parallel organization.

See the page on Masonic Info.com for more on the matter.
Pike's Racism

 

[Blaine B. Gemeny]

But, as often is the case, one sentence taken out of context can be misleading at best. In fact, that quote - appearing in a book published by the anti-Masonic "Charles T. Powner Co." Delmar D. Darrah, a Past Grand Master of Illinois included it in his work, "The History and Evolution of Freemasonry" published in 1954. Immediately preceding that sentence, however, appears the following:

"The status of Negro Masonry in this country was perhaps never better defined than it was by Albert Pike in 1875, when he said"

"Prince Hall Lodge was as regular a Lodge as any Lodge created by competent authority. It had a perfect right to establish other Lodges and make itself a Mother Lodge."

It is noted that Darrah's quotation of Pike refers to the state of Masonic relations between Prince Hall Masonry and "Mainstream" Masonry over 175 years ago - at the time when social separation of the races was both accepted and expected. Those who cite the Pike quote fail to acknowledge that in the United States even a full century later, there were race riots and discrimination was rampant. Children were being bussed to schools, major cities such as Boston were in open revolt with car bombings of those reserve and guard military forces which were called in to assist in keeping peace, and barely 20 years earlier, the rest rooms in the United States Supreme Court were segregated. Is it any wonder that a gentleman of Pike's time would find it disagreeable and improper to 'mingle' as an equal with "Negroes" who, even to today, are depicted as "mud people".

Suffice it to say, the argument of Pike's racism is but a ruse. The quotation involved Prince Hall Freemasonry. Despite this statement, however, Pike gave a complete copy of the Scottish Rite rituals to Prince Hall leaders in order to assist them in the formation of a parallel organization.

See the page on Masonic Info.com for more on the matter.
Pike's Racism

Masonic Teachings are often ear to mouth and passed down from one generation of a family to the next. I am a direct descendant of John Gemeny a Royal Ark Mariner.
John Gemeny and Naomi (Tewksbury) were married (according to "Vital Records of Salem Marriages, Essex Inst. Pg 545) on July 24, 1790 in Salem Massachusetts. John was employed as a Ship's Master or Captain by the late 1790s (according to "Proof of Ownership for Enrolled Vessels 1796 - 1801" RG 41 Volume 9757). In August 1797 John Gemeny was listed as "Master, The James, a Brig of 147 89/95 tonns belonging to Mark and John Prager, Merchants of Philadelpia"
I quoted Pike in a letter written to his familial brother to describe the sentiment that Colonial Masons at an earlier period of time had when first approached by Prince Hall. (This sentiment can be seen in the letter of General Albert Pike C.S.A. to his brother in 1875 where he says, “ I am not inclined to mettle in the matter. I took my obligations to white men, not to Negroes. When I have to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave it.)
I concur with your statements that it was how Prince Hall Masons went about warranting a charter and not based on an expressed policy of racism by the Rite. In the eyes of the local Masonic community, Prince Hall and his followers circumvented the Massachusetts Grand Lodge that was independent of the Grand Lodge of England at this time and this against the tradition that, per state, only one recognized Masonic body should exist.

It is my personal belief that brotherhood amongst men of God regardless of recognition or standing of their Fraternity is paramount. Love between brothers is universal whether it be between members of the Milwaukee Outlaws Motorcycle Club, A Boy Scout Troop, or the Tripoli Shrine. I hope I have shed light to my perspective and appreciate being able to participate in this Forum. Hope to see you in August in the Cream Puff Parlor.

 

[Bob Franks]

(snip) if it was once ruled clandestine that all of a sudden with a magic wand it isn't I just don't understand .(snip)When I went into the lodge years ago I signed that I was free white and 21 (snip)

On September 23, 2010, the Most Serene Grand Lodge of San Marino was (to NC AF&AM Masons) clandestine, being unrecognized.
On September 24, in Grand Lodge session we voted to recognize them.
Any grand lodge has the power to change who it recognizes, if it can't make adjustments in its rules, why bother meeting?

BTW, to quote my daughter, when she was 4, "I'm not white, I'm peach colored."
I do not know of a single albino in NC masonry...

S&F

 

[MILLZ27]

ive petitioned for a pha lodge

pha lodge is what ive petioned

 

[Bob Franks]

pha lodge is what ive petioned

You've taken the first step in a rich and fulfilling journey!

S&F

 

[PatrickWilliams]

pha lodge is what ive petioned

Yay, Millz! Welcome, brother!