Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Well said, it is my hope that when the time comes for me to vote on ANY potential member of my Lodge that I have the resolve to do the right thing for them and my Lodge.
Can a person be Homosexual and be a Mason or Eastern star?
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I have the good fortune to know two fine men in freemasonry who are homosexuals. They both work very hard for their lodges, I have encountered them in many social situations and I would trust them without doubt, so maybe my view is limited by experience. I came from a military background, US Navy for 30 years, and might be considered a fairly conservative person, but I could never in good faith and in support of the aims of freemasonry reject a good man over this issue.
Having said that I certainly understand why Ashlar 2006 would feel that exposing the fraternity to the news media was an inappropraite device.
Brotherhood is something close to my heart, as I came for a military career, where your bond with brothers in arms could be the difference between life and death. It strikes me as a situation where I must ask myself, "How would I treat my real brother if I found this was the situation." My answer is of course, I would continue to be his brother and love him as he stands.
Having said that I certainly understand why Ashlar 2006 would feel that exposing the fraternity to the news media was an inappropraite device.
Brotherhood is something close to my heart, as I came for a military career, where your bond with brothers in arms could be the difference between life and death. It strikes me as a situation where I must ask myself, "How would I treat my real brother if I found this was the situation." My answer is of course, I would continue to be his brother and love him as he stands.
removed12612
Guest
VirKnight.... I think the issue isnt if a gay man is a good citizen or not...the issues is a moral one...what one person considers immoral another doesnt have a problem with it... that is a personal decision we each have to make. If you can vote with a clear conscious and you are not voting maliciously then whatever decision you make is correct.... Harmony of the Lodge needs to be taken into consideration when making the decision to all any man into the fraternity
Our faith being in G-d, how can we reasonably question his creation of homosexuals as moral? If one who is not homosexual, views it as a choice, on what reasonable basis do they come to this conclusion? Of the brothers and friends I have who are gay, none of them, by their own admission, would have ever chosen to be gay.
Moreover, if we follow our VSLs, our place is not to judge our fellow man, it's G-d's. If this person has sinned in his eyes, G-d will judge him accordingly. The converse also applies.
I was blessed with a remarkably insightful father who taught me that, in life the only thing that counts whether a man seeks to do me harm, or not. They grey area is for those who appear to be friends and are not, and vice-versa.
Moreover, if we follow our VSLs, our place is not to judge our fellow man, it's G-d's. If this person has sinned in his eyes, G-d will judge him accordingly. The converse also applies.
I was blessed with a remarkably insightful father who taught me that, in life the only thing that counts whether a man seeks to do me harm, or not. They grey area is for those who appear to be friends and are not, and vice-versa.
removed12612
Guest
If a Brother is a Evangelical Christian and do not agree that homosexuality is not right, how do you ask them to vote against their beliefs.....??? That is why I say if you vote honestly from your heart and without malice, then you have done no wrong. If you say that morality should be removed in making your decision, then what else should be removed?...How do you justify not allowing women?
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
There is a man is my town who, if he were to petition, I would vote 'no' because I know his character, ethics, & morality are not in line with the Masonic tenets, not even close. There is another man who is the polar opposite of the first that I would recommend Masonry to without reservation. Both could pass the basic tests for membership.
I should not care about where they work, what they do for a job, who they hang out with, what church they go to, where they live, [insert all the objective things you can come up with], or their sexual orientation or lack of, we would accept a man who has taken a vow of celibacy would we not?
All that said we are still human, with faults, flaws, and prejudices; we probably not vote purely without guile but rather from our imperfectness. If we were prefect we would not need religion or Masonry, or anything else to guide us on the way towards that perfection.
Aren't Freemasons regarded as taboo by Evangelical Christians?
I would never remove morality as a criteria. For instance, I would take (and have taken) issue with the consideration of an application of a known drug-dealer. That is an issue of poorly applied free-agency.
I (personally) do not believe homosexuality is an issue of free-agency, but an issue of genetic predisposition. I have faith, but science is my discriminator. Homophobic tendencies (speaking only for myself) are a manifestation of an irrational fear of the unknown, much like integration was in the 60's.
My Brothers,
A man must vote his heart in all things if he wishes to be honorable. I am a very conservative person, I believe strongly in christian principles but I would not vote against a Jew, Muslin, Hindu or other choice based selected lifestyle for membership in our fraternity. In my job I have an employee who is gay. He is a super guy, good christian and if he asked me for a petition I would be happy to sign. I have known him for about 5 or 6 years and did not even realize that he was gay until we invited him to a Christmas party a couple of years ago. He came to my office after the invitation and said he would like to attend but did not wish to offend anyone. I asked why he thought he would offend anyone as he is very polite and a really nice fellow. He said he would like to bring his spouse. I said of course everyone was going to bring their family. He seemed to have more to say, so I asked him to explain the issue he had. He said that he was aware that I was a retired Naval Officer and that I might not be able to accept his situation. I said, tell me what it is and I wil let you know. He explained his spousse was another man. I told him I did not think that mattered to anyone. He finally agreed to attend and his spouse turned out to be a great guy too. I am glad they came to my home. As Psi Brr said, it may not be a choice as much as a genetic issue, but if I do not hold someone's choice of religion against him, how can I hold his choice of who he will spend his life with. Kindness and love lead to enlightenment. Enlightenment weill lead to kindness and love. A perfect system. I have no desire to be a homosexual, I find the idea unappealing; but I can't hate someone for doing what they must to live a happy life.
A man must vote his heart in all things if he wishes to be honorable. I am a very conservative person, I believe strongly in christian principles but I would not vote against a Jew, Muslin, Hindu or other choice based selected lifestyle for membership in our fraternity. In my job I have an employee who is gay. He is a super guy, good christian and if he asked me for a petition I would be happy to sign. I have known him for about 5 or 6 years and did not even realize that he was gay until we invited him to a Christmas party a couple of years ago. He came to my office after the invitation and said he would like to attend but did not wish to offend anyone. I asked why he thought he would offend anyone as he is very polite and a really nice fellow. He said he would like to bring his spouse. I said of course everyone was going to bring their family. He seemed to have more to say, so I asked him to explain the issue he had. He said that he was aware that I was a retired Naval Officer and that I might not be able to accept his situation. I said, tell me what it is and I wil let you know. He explained his spousse was another man. I told him I did not think that mattered to anyone. He finally agreed to attend and his spouse turned out to be a great guy too. I am glad they came to my home. As Psi Brr said, it may not be a choice as much as a genetic issue, but if I do not hold someone's choice of religion against him, how can I hold his choice of who he will spend his life with. Kindness and love lead to enlightenment. Enlightenment weill lead to kindness and love. A perfect system. I have no desire to be a homosexual, I find the idea unappealing; but I can't hate someone for doing what they must to live a happy life.
removed12612
Guest
The answer for me to your first question is NO...
Why would you consider the known drug dealer immoral???...If he has not be arrested or convicted, arent you making an assumption?? Morality doe not have a right or wrong side....
Let me ask you this...if a Muslim was a member of your Lodge and he voted no on a candidate that he knows likes to have a beer or two...not a drunkard...but the Muslim Brother feels it is morally wrong to drink...is he wrong for following his beliefs?
As far as free-agency, I think it is a choice...(IMHO)...science can be twisted to fit whatever you wish it to support. Just like laws....it is subjective to those making the interpretation....
I am not homophobic, that would mean I am afraid of them...I am not...I have had some very good friends over the years that are gay....
I wish anyone to give me a reasonable answer to this question OK....
If those who are not inagrement with a gay man joining are to put aside their moral issue with homosexuality, then please give me a reason why you feel a woman is not acceptable as a mason. I know the definition of farternity .... give me a another reason. For the record, I am 100% against women joining.....
Why would you consider the known drug dealer immoral???...If he has not be arrested or convicted, arent you making an assumption?? Morality doe not have a right or wrong side....
Let me ask you this...if a Muslim was a member of your Lodge and he voted no on a candidate that he knows likes to have a beer or two...not a drunkard...but the Muslim Brother feels it is morally wrong to drink...is he wrong for following his beliefs?
As far as free-agency, I think it is a choice...(IMHO)...science can be twisted to fit whatever you wish it to support. Just like laws....it is subjective to those making the interpretation....
I am not homophobic, that would mean I am afraid of them...I am not...I have had some very good friends over the years that are gay....
I wish anyone to give me a reasonable answer to this question OK....
If those who are not inagrement with a gay man joining are to put aside their moral issue with homosexuality, then please give me a reason why you feel a woman is not acceptable as a mason. I know the definition of farternity .... give me a another reason. For the record, I am 100% against women joining.....
Azpir8king
Member
If we project our PERSONAL MORALITY or THE edicts of our chosen church with no other proof of WRONG DOING under the LAW of the land or no direct evidence or experience of low Moral Character (meaning he HURTS others for his own gain or pleasure), onto a potential candidate, then we have done a DISSERVICE to our Brothers and the Lodge.
If a Red-haired bully smacked you around in grade school and your Momma told you Ginger kids were evil (which they are, but that's a different story), then you could JUSTIFY ( in your head) not allowing any red-haired Candidates to join your lodge. You voted your conscience based on a personal PREJUDICE. How does that help Freemasonry? or your lodge? or you? And why would you deny our craft to another man for a reason as ignorant as that? Do you see the similarity?
To deny a man who is Gay his opportunity to be a better man is the same thing. And BETTER doesn't mean he stops being Gay. Remove the fact he is Gay from the equation and look at him for everything else that he is and does. Would you have voted for him otherwise? Don't confuse a prejudice with actual values and acceptability under the guidelines of Freemasonry.
I guess a better point would be...IF your Religious organization which is OK with Freemasonry today SUDDENLY said Freemasonry is anti-christian, immoral and declared it a SIN...would you quit the Lodge? Based on the previous "vote your moral conscious" condoning ...you would have to, wouldn't you? I don't think you would. I would like to believe that you would let commons sense override the edicts and teachings of the MEN that interpret and shape the words of the Grand Architect to their views or agenda.
If a Red-haired bully smacked you around in grade school and your Momma told you Ginger kids were evil (which they are, but that's a different story), then you could JUSTIFY ( in your head) not allowing any red-haired Candidates to join your lodge. You voted your conscience based on a personal PREJUDICE. How does that help Freemasonry? or your lodge? or you? And why would you deny our craft to another man for a reason as ignorant as that? Do you see the similarity?
To deny a man who is Gay his opportunity to be a better man is the same thing. And BETTER doesn't mean he stops being Gay. Remove the fact he is Gay from the equation and look at him for everything else that he is and does. Would you have voted for him otherwise? Don't confuse a prejudice with actual values and acceptability under the guidelines of Freemasonry.
I guess a better point would be...IF your Religious organization which is OK with Freemasonry today SUDDENLY said Freemasonry is anti-christian, immoral and declared it a SIN...would you quit the Lodge? Based on the previous "vote your moral conscious" condoning ...you would have to, wouldn't you? I don't think you would. I would like to believe that you would let commons sense override the edicts and teachings of the MEN that interpret and shape the words of the Grand Architect to their views or agenda.
removed12612
Guest
VirKnight.... I would have no issues with socializing with a gay man....I am looking for a reasonable answer as to why my moral standards are not to be followed (by me) but a person with a liberal moral standard is OK.
We are not accepting of women in masonry....are we not to treat them as equals if they meet all of the requirements.....
We are not accepting of women in masonry....are we not to treat them as equals if they meet all of the requirements.....
removed12612
Guest
Ok... I can buy your arguement about a gay man...
WHY not do the same with women???.... All we are doing is switching a woman with a gay man in this discussion.... Right is Right...Right?
WHY not do the same with women???.... All we are doing is switching a woman with a gay man in this discussion.... Right is Right...Right?
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
In Wisconsin, the entry test is 1 Deity, no felonies, and a man of age. Man is the operative word for the sake of this conversation. There is a few back/forths in the thread about transsexuals and the lack of a Y-chromosome.
The Lodges in Europe accept women and there are all woman Lodges as well.
removed12612
Guest
I agree 100% BUT.... there are other sections in the OB's that make specific gender refrences that could be taken as a gay man wouldnt be included with
removed12612
Guest
I feel I should insert a disclaimer here: I am not being argumentative....just inquisitive(sp?)
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
I as well, verbal fencing is quite refreshing
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Are those references due to the time-frame that they were written OR a purposeful determination of gender specificity?
removed12612
Guest
I ask you the same towards the term "MAN".....do they mean man as in male or "man" as in mankind???
Duncan1574
Lodge Chaplain & arms dealer
Since this is a fratrenal organization, I believe for the sake of this discussion that Man means a male (& I suspect a male Homo Sapien but then what would the goat, should we insure that we have the proper sex of goat?)
My Brother fireman 99,
I fully understand, and see your argument, if you in your heart of hearts believe a gay man is against your moral standards, it would be necessary for you to vote your beliefs.
You made two points and I think they must both be addressed, in fairness.
Your moral code might well exclude gambling or dancing. You would never be expected to attend a dance, but does that exclusion mean you would never be a member of a lodge that had dancers as members. I know this is an extreme example, but the point is unchanged.
Next, a gay man is not a woman, and a woman is expressly forbidden by doctrine. Do you know why women are not allowed to be freemasons? I have read an answer or two to this question.
Three seem to be most used:
1.The landmarks of freemasonry forbid it. Not a really solid reason, just a fact of life. It can’t be changed because it is a “landmark rule”. The good answer here is that this is what men who have joined have agreed to do.
2.Masonry is one that remains, and out of respect for its little-understood efficacy, we choose not to tinker with it. (In formal words, we say "...it is not within the power of any man or body of men to make any alteration in the body of Masonry.") In short, the exclusion may be serving some purpose, and since we hardly understand how or why Masonry "works", we don't mess with it.
3.Finally, women are accepted into Masonic lodges, as co-masons and female masons under other systems of freemasonry, and those are not recognized by the F&AM or AF&AM grand lodges in the US. This matter of regularity was defined in the 1700s and their status as irregular prevents Masonic communication or inclusion into our lodges.
How do any of those arguments apply to a gay man? He is not forbidden by landmark, efficacy or tradition. I am not faulting your moral choice, I support it, but the argument that they are simply women in different men's bodies does not hold water.
A better argument might be that we (males who are not gay) have nothing in common with this fellow. Which might be true and I have had a young man come to me as a lodge officer and indicate that he did not feel really comfortable in our lodge. I asked why and he mentioned that everyone in the lodge was about 80 years old and he was 26. I pointed him to another lodge that was in line with his expectations.
That says, a guy might not fit due to age, religion or sexual orientation, but it would not explain why I might blackball anyone under the age of say 55 years because such a problem might exist.
When I apply this logic to a gay man, I would have to say something along the lines of his moral code does not align with mine. That might not work because I can’t accept some religions and their codes of conduct.
If a Islamic Extremist wanted to join my lodge and I asked him if he would bomb a church or a school, I could never vote him into membership, but I have voted a person who is a Muslim into our lodge.
In my humble opinion, voting your moral code would mean viewing each person as you see them. If you can’t abide a man who is gay in your lodge, you should never vote for him but I believe that if I felt that way I would study the issue and if my heart told me that this person would not be a good mason, and a good brother, my vote would be clear.
If on the other hand I felt he could be a valued member of the fraternity and I would be happy to work with him for the betterment of myself and others. I would vote accordingly.
A Masonic Lodge is a place where we learn to be even better than we are today. Those lessons differ for every man. The road along the path to being an enlightened person might well be considered highly customized for each of us. A traveler can see only what he can see from his place on the path. You are not at all wrong to vote against someone you feel does not fit your view of a good man, or a good mason.
If part of that criteria is his race, religion, sexual preference or age, and that is how you see it with you best moral judgment in mind, then you are 100% correct. The reason 1 negative vote is a killer in the lodge is because we have agreed to have no contention except whether one man can work better than another. If this would be a point of contention, it should be justification for a blackball.
In the end you must live with every vote you make and I must live with mine. I can’t recall a person I have cast a blackball against, but that does not mean I never will, nor does it mean that I would ever do so with lesser or greater reason.
No matter the outcome, we are first and foremost brothers and you would always enjoy my support.
I fully understand, and see your argument, if you in your heart of hearts believe a gay man is against your moral standards, it would be necessary for you to vote your beliefs.
You made two points and I think they must both be addressed, in fairness.
Your moral code might well exclude gambling or dancing. You would never be expected to attend a dance, but does that exclusion mean you would never be a member of a lodge that had dancers as members. I know this is an extreme example, but the point is unchanged.
Next, a gay man is not a woman, and a woman is expressly forbidden by doctrine. Do you know why women are not allowed to be freemasons? I have read an answer or two to this question.
Three seem to be most used:
1.The landmarks of freemasonry forbid it. Not a really solid reason, just a fact of life. It can’t be changed because it is a “landmark rule”. The good answer here is that this is what men who have joined have agreed to do.
2.Masonry is one that remains, and out of respect for its little-understood efficacy, we choose not to tinker with it. (In formal words, we say "...it is not within the power of any man or body of men to make any alteration in the body of Masonry.") In short, the exclusion may be serving some purpose, and since we hardly understand how or why Masonry "works", we don't mess with it.
3.Finally, women are accepted into Masonic lodges, as co-masons and female masons under other systems of freemasonry, and those are not recognized by the F&AM or AF&AM grand lodges in the US. This matter of regularity was defined in the 1700s and their status as irregular prevents Masonic communication or inclusion into our lodges.
How do any of those arguments apply to a gay man? He is not forbidden by landmark, efficacy or tradition. I am not faulting your moral choice, I support it, but the argument that they are simply women in different men's bodies does not hold water.
A better argument might be that we (males who are not gay) have nothing in common with this fellow. Which might be true and I have had a young man come to me as a lodge officer and indicate that he did not feel really comfortable in our lodge. I asked why and he mentioned that everyone in the lodge was about 80 years old and he was 26. I pointed him to another lodge that was in line with his expectations.
That says, a guy might not fit due to age, religion or sexual orientation, but it would not explain why I might blackball anyone under the age of say 55 years because such a problem might exist.
When I apply this logic to a gay man, I would have to say something along the lines of his moral code does not align with mine. That might not work because I can’t accept some religions and their codes of conduct.
If a Islamic Extremist wanted to join my lodge and I asked him if he would bomb a church or a school, I could never vote him into membership, but I have voted a person who is a Muslim into our lodge.
In my humble opinion, voting your moral code would mean viewing each person as you see them. If you can’t abide a man who is gay in your lodge, you should never vote for him but I believe that if I felt that way I would study the issue and if my heart told me that this person would not be a good mason, and a good brother, my vote would be clear.
If on the other hand I felt he could be a valued member of the fraternity and I would be happy to work with him for the betterment of myself and others. I would vote accordingly.
A Masonic Lodge is a place where we learn to be even better than we are today. Those lessons differ for every man. The road along the path to being an enlightened person might well be considered highly customized for each of us. A traveler can see only what he can see from his place on the path. You are not at all wrong to vote against someone you feel does not fit your view of a good man, or a good mason.
If part of that criteria is his race, religion, sexual preference or age, and that is how you see it with you best moral judgment in mind, then you are 100% correct. The reason 1 negative vote is a killer in the lodge is because we have agreed to have no contention except whether one man can work better than another. If this would be a point of contention, it should be justification for a blackball.
In the end you must live with every vote you make and I must live with mine. I can’t recall a person I have cast a blackball against, but that does not mean I never will, nor does it mean that I would ever do so with lesser or greater reason.
No matter the outcome, we are first and foremost brothers and you would always enjoy my support.